is2 and tiger ace

I love how apparently to relic there was no other ace tankers during the war but tiger ones.

Knispel 168 Germany
Carius 150+ Germany
Bölter 139 Germany
Wittmann 138 Germany
Kniep 129 Germany
Körner 102 Germany
Woll 100+ Germany
Egger 113 Germany
Sandrock 100+ Germany
Wendorff 84 Germany
Barkmann 82 Germany
Bäke 79 Germany
Bix 75+ Germany
Strippel 70 Germany
Seibold 69 Germany
Primozic 68 Germany
Brommann 66 Germany
Brandner 61 Germany
Von Rohr 58 Germany
Lavrinenko 57 Soviet Union

Notice something?

5 is generally enough to be considered an "Ace" and there are not that many of those guys around as the above indicates



It's not a coincidence that the Nation with the most post-WW2 aces, air and ground is Israel as their strategic situation is similar:

You need to be fighting a lot, outnumbered, with a training and equipment edge.

You also need to lack any process for rotating people out of combat.



Also German service culture, and the Nazi world view promoted score chasing for it's own sake and propaganda value rather than teamwork

Also German service culture, and the Nazi world view promoted score chasing for it's own sake and propaganda value rather than teamwork

"It is often said that Hartmann was more proud of the fact that he had never lost a wingman in combat than he was about his number of kills; however, he did have at least one shot down. Major Günther Capito had joined the unit in the spring of 1943. Capito was a former bomber pilot who had retrained on fighters. After scoring his fifth victory, Capito asked to be Hartmann's wingman. Hartmann refused initially, believing Capito was insufficiently trained on Messerschmitts. On their first mission together, they were engaged by P-39 Airacobras:[55]"

Kill claims are unreliable. Just saying. Most kill claims of these german aces need to cut down by atleast 50% to get a more accurate number.

Notice something?

That Germany has the highest scoring aces of all time is not in dispute, however that's a consequence of their strategic situation and service culture and is a sign of fundamental weakness not strength.


If you're Allied and you are good you get pulled off the line to do warbond tours and train the next generation.

If you are German, you stay on the frontline until you get crippled, wounded, killed or promoted out.

Kill claims are unreliable. Just saying. Most kill claims of these german aces need to cut down by atleast 50% to get a more accurate number.

Those are the confirmed numbers, they can as well be higher. But then let´s also cut Lavrinenkos kill number in half, because "all unreliable". It was to show the relation and explain why the Tiger Ace is an iconic unit. Most of those were achieved with Tigers.

It must really burn you guys up to know the nazis lost the war

There's a glimmer of hope though, I'm told theres a secret nazi base in antarctica where your pal adolf was cloned

Those are the confirmed numbers, they can as well be higher. But then let´s also cut Lavrinenkos kill number in half, because "all unreliable". It was to show the relation and explain why the Tiger Ace is an iconic unit. Most of those were achieved with Tigers.

They aren't confirmed numbers. I don't understand why people take kill claims as fact. Kill claims are just kill claims, they are not confirmed with allied records. Both of the sides claims on what they destroyed were generally way overblown also increased proportionally due to propoganda.

I just tried to explain why the TA is ingame. Pretty much the tank that was given to the most skilled crews, thus it´s not far to have that ingame.

It must really burn you guys up to know the nazis lost the war

There's a glimmer of hope though, I'm told theres a secret nazi base in antarctica where your pal adolf was cloned

Why make this political?

But if you want to go that way: Nobody in his right mind is sad the Nazis lost the war.

I´m glad the Western Allies freed us from that terror. However Soviets just brought the same shit in red, fucked up the whole East of Germany and Europe. Everybody smart enough and with the means to do so, would send his family to the west.

I just tried to explain why the TA is ingame.

So a bis-bunch of unclaimed kill list of german tankers is a valid-reason why there is a TA and not any other ace tanks in the game?



"I guess only germans could have ace tankers."

http://www.wio.ru/tank/ww2aces.htm

Oh hey, Look I can post a bised list of Tank Aces too!

So a bis-bunch of unclaimed kill list of german tankers is a valid-reason why there is a TA and not any other ace tanks in the game?


"I guess only germans could have ace tankers."

http://www.wio.ru/tank/ww2aces.htm

Oh hey, Look I can post a bised list of Tank Aces too!

168 etc. > 52. Guess you learned that in school. Tiger ace is more likely then.

Biased numbers? Is Wikipedia biased?

Biased numbers? Is Wikipedia biased?

You really ask if a page which is being written and edited by anyone could be biased?

I'd say, its often accurate, but its not the most creditable source around, especially if it doesn't include a wall of source texts for articles.

Kills are kills, its not like having more or less kills makes you more or less a Tank ace.

Because that would be a pretty stupid assumption to make.


Also Wikipedia, you believe everything on Wikipedia?

You really ask if a page which is being written and edited by anyone could be biased?

I'd say, its often accurate, but its not the most creditable source around, especially if it doesn't include a wall of source texts for articles.

Why Of course the Germans never lied about their claims what nonsense are you speaking!

Are people seriously debating about aces now? Germany had more aces because they had better crew preservation, there isn't any numbers fudging here, it's simple logic/math.

Veterans are better tankers, the average life span of a German tank was longer than one of a Soviet one, ergo more German Ace tankers.

IS-2 mod 44's should roflstomp Tiger 1s tho

IS-2 mod 44's should roflstomp Tiger 1s tho

Which make no sense in the context of the game because they cost exactly the same and have exactly the same rolls. Nor would it make any historical sense because the IS2 wasn't created to fight enemy tanks.

Are people seriously debating about aces now? Germany had more aces because they had better crew preservation, there isn't any numbers fudging here, it's simple logic/math.

Veterans are better tankers, the average life span of a German tank was longer than one of a Soviet one, ergo more German Ace tankers.

[Citation Needed]

and if you want to talk about simple math

Less German Tanks Against more and more Allied tanks
More and More Allied Tanks against Fewer German Tanks

Germany was on the defensive for the later part of the war which gave them an inherent advantage as far as scoring kills.

"Myth: German and crews were superior to anything the Allies had, and achieved an X:1 kill to death ratio (the number varies greatly).
Fact: The flaws of German kill counts are covered in detail here and here."

"Myth: The SS were an elite fighting force, especially their armoured divisions.
Fact: The success attributed to the SS is mostly based on their war diaries (Tigers in Combat). The diaries had little to do with reality (Tigers in Normandy). Even the Wehrmacht slashed the claims of the SS in half when estimating their performance, and Schneider’s research shows that even that was an optimistic figure. For example, Wittmann’s famous battle at Villers-Bocage where he is claims 20 kills only had 7 to his name. His victory was blown out of proportion by SS propaganda, since they were desperate for a tank ace among their own, routinely assigning an entire unit’s accomplishments to one tank/crew.
Most people focus on the three SS divisions that were LAH, Reich, and Totenkopf, which were equivalent to a Wehrmacht division at the best of times. The remaining SS divisions were barely Volkssturm quality, assigned to rear line duties such as executing civilians and fighting partisans. (Credit: Zinegata, Brickfight)"

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/09/05/common-myths-about-wwii/

Which make no sense in the context of the game because they cost exactly the same and have exactly the same rolls. Nor would it make any historical sense because the IS2 wasn't created to fight enemy tanks.

Neither was the Tiger I both were created as breakthrough tanks and both turned out to good at taking out enemy armor. IS-2 overall was better than the Tiger I IRL, but thats not a fair comparison.

Which make no sense in the context of the game because they cost exactly the same and have exactly the same rolls. Nor would it make any historical sense because the IS2 wasn't created to fight enemy tanks.

Historically it should roflstomp the Tiger 1 in every department, in Coh2 thats another story.