Ostheer balance

Its not about " ohhh i loose against russians, they are op !! ", cause i've played both factions, and here are my results : i'm a way better player at ostheer than russians, less things to manage and more micro than flanking but i loose like 9on10 times with ostheer and i get 6/7on10 win ratio with russians that i see i dont manage them well.

Russians get early advantage, like US did in vanilla, but the problem is that back in vanilla, germans had hard counter to M8, rifle spam, now as the T34 spams you had to choose either to spend 120 muni on double panzerschrecks (i would have never done that as a vanilla wher = loose one shreck for sure at one moment of the game) making them less effective against inf = they loose any 1v1 against middle game russians. I feel that germans dont have really anything to deal with armor AND inf AT THE SAME TIME, when i counter their tanks i got brainfarts managing inf vs inf cause its just coming from evrywhere ... dont tell me " learn to play its just the begining ", i never had problem managing mutliple units back in vanilla, was lvl 13 with wher, and when the m8 was coming very quick , or a quick sherman, that meant that their inf would be weak. Now, without the veterancy system, you have to deal with equal lvl infantry, but superior armor : i explain myself

When i mean superior armor its chronologically : yes ostheer have better tanks, but they come soooo late, that at a T moment, russians would be more likely to have a better tank than you.

Another "complain" on this balance problem, is the map that are mostly 2v2 ones, wiht large scale, wich didnt really fit for a german player as you get flanked from evrywhere, again the map are quite busy with objects evrywhere, and you speend quite too much time on dodging trees than on fighting, maps need some "battle areas" with hard covers and red ones : places where the game is decided.

I hope other have the same thoughts as me, and lets be constructive, don't " russians are op" or the opposite and don't " evrything will go perfect after the patch"

I don't think it's as one sided as you make it out... A shreked squad and a pak is more than enough to deal with a T-34 and the grenadiers faust can work in a pinch if your caught in a bad position with your pak because of the damage engine crit it will give. Teller mines are also excellent on the 2 current maps because there are narrow corridors and a good chance you will get a hit. My point is there's enough there to stop that T34 running riot with units you should have anyway. I think what people are struggling with is the not knowing what's coming next from the Soviet player as it's early in the game right now and it's not quite as predictable as the meta US.

T2 is useless now, just Grenspam and StuG / Pz4 spam, then Conspam to T-34 spam will die like flies

I don't think it's as one sided as you make it out... A shreked squad and a pak is more than enough to deal with a T-34 and the grenadiers faust can work in a pinch if your caught in a bad position with your pak because of the damage engine crit it will give. Teller mines are also excellent on the 2 current maps because there are narrow corridors and a good chance you will get a hit. My point is there's enough there to stop that T34 running riot with units you should have anyway. I think what people are struggling with is the not knowing what's coming next from the Soviet player as it's early in the game right now and it's not quite as predictable as the meta US.

I see your point here, its true thats we don't know how to really predict what's coming. BUT even with predicting, the problem is the versatility of germans based on their cost. You can get a quite cheap versatile army with russians, with germans, its either full anti T34 and if it is followed by infantry its very hard to catch up. When i mean there is a balance issue it doesnt mean you can't win as german, just that you'll need more skills.

EDIT : 4 first games as russians = easy win if you know how to finish it quick enough, the 5th game i lost it cause the game went campy so i learn to know what an Elefant + 3panther spam is. And i can tell you i am not really good with US-like factions.

T2 is useless now

Pgrens dominate against conscript spam, especially if they haven't gone the HTD doctrine. Also all the options in T3 are very fuel expensive making it hard to trasition T1-T3 and actually have enough fuel to produce units consistently. No way is it useless.

Pgrens dominate against conscript spam, especially if they haven't gone the HTD doctrine. Also all the options in T3 are very fuel expensive making it hard to trasition T1-T3 and actually have enough fuel to produce units consistently. No way is it useless.

No way, they are not like PE MP44 PG vs Rifles
They are ultra expensive and their MP44 is clearly not deadly enough, Cons can stay at cover and swarm them up

Grens with G43 / LMG42 are 10 times better than PG

I agree that overall the Gren is probably a better unit right now, but the fact that their weapon upgrades are completely nullified on the move can make your army very static and vulnerable to indirect fire and unable to move up and kill exposed units. BUT my main point is that there is too much of a window for your opponent to get a t-70 or t-34 without you having any solid AT at all, and you will likely get pushed off the map somewhat and if you lose your fuel and you were banking on T3 units then your f*****d really.

Yeah I agree, as it stands now Russians have an advantage over Ostheer in 1v1. They just have so many more options: cheap clown cars, snipers, quick T70, SU-76s with barrage, T34 with its cheesy ram or straight conscript spam. Ostheer has a linear teching path with only soft counters to counter whatever the Russian player decides to throw at you. And to counter the russians the Ostheer player has to burn through alot of munitions. Imo there needs to be some extreme re-balancing measures taking place like adding a supply yard building as a requirement for T3/T4.

Been playing the betas since a while back now, and I really agree with this. I play Ostheer most of the time, and I'm having a real hard time countering early russian armor, especially if they get some shock troops going. Not saying it's OP, I just feel hard countered whatever I do.

Yeah I agree, as it stands now Russians have an advantage over Ostheer in 1v1. They just have so many more options: cheap clown cars, snipers, quick T70, SU-76s with barrage, T34 with its cheesy ram or straight conscript spam. Ostheer has a linear teching path with only soft counters to counter whatever the Russian player decides to throw at you. And to counter the russians the Ostheer player has to burn through alot of munitions. Imo there needs to be some extreme re-balancing measures taking place like adding a supply yard building as a requirement for T3/T4.

Decrease Ostwind to 40-50 fuel, increase T34 to 90-100 fuel.

let's don't talk about balance because Relic don't care about it atm because they are focusing on other stuff right now, balance is the last thing that they want to do (probably in Open Beta)

T2 is useless now, just Grenspam and StuG / Pz4 spam, then Conspam to T-34 spam will die like flies

Oh look its the CoH1 beta all over again....


I agree though, late game Russians are a bit broken atm. If they pull a fast T34 with a ton of conscripts, there's not a lot to counter them. The PanzerIV is decent, but since the Russians basically control the tech phase, it's not viable - it's a reaction not a prevention.

All they really need to do is buff the MP44 up to PGren/KCH levels, or make the T-34 cost a bit more fuel (i.e. what Basilone said). The Mp44 buff is the easiest counter though. It means that the Russians would need to invest more MP into higher-level infantry, instead of spamming cheap conscripts. This would delay the first T34, and also slow the rate of subsequent T34s. It would also make T2 actually useful; because right now it's not.

When the scoutcar's 20mm was actually a useful upgrade, it made sense to rush T2, get the shock scout car out there (It was possible at about 4-5min), and simply mop up conscript squads. Then they nerfed it to the ground. The flamer HT isn't good enough for the cost, the mortar HT is so situational its insane (and it's not the best doctrine anyway), and the PAK simply isn't effective enough vs. T34's, as it dies to conscript blobs within 2 seconds.

Currently my only solution is to be insanely over-aggressive. It works against 90% of the players, but if you run into anyone good, you just get shut down as they focus in on single squads that are capping. If they even maintain a 40% map control, the fuel income allows for them to start pumping T34s fairly early in the game (15 min? I think? Don't remember).

Ostheer 1v1 is currently almost entirely reactive.

Soviet makes all the choices, whereas Ostheer can only hope to react with soft counters that have little bearing or effect on subsequent Soviet choices, resulting in Ostheer being constantly on the backfoot struggling to wrestle even a bit of opportunity for initiative.

let's don't talk about balance because Relic don't care about it atm because they are focusing on other stuff right now, balance is the last thing that they want to do (probably in Open Beta)

yup, but it's always nice to have a bit of a whine
I haven't had too many problems with this "super fast, cheap, kills everything, no counter" T34 people are talking about though....

let's don't talk about balance because Relic don't care about it atm because they are focusing on other stuff right now, balance is the last thing that they want to do (probably in Open Beta)

This would be true, except for the unfortunate fact that despite Dev's reporting a less than 1% deviancy in metrics following the closed beta, they now went and made many changes, without announcing specifics, which have effectively thrown those metrics out the window and returned the community and the state of the beta to re-testing the changes to what where once deemed as "ok".

Just one game few hours ago, I Oowahh one PPSH Cons into a squad of PG in cover, enable hit the dirt at the PG face, Cons won.

Is it a fucking joke?
Some "armed civilians" kick the ass of "Well Trained Elite" German soldier?

I forgot to mention there is an AC nearby too, the very same squad killed that AC and force retreat the PG at one man, Cons squad still got 2 men alive

Just one game few hours ago, I Oowahh one PPSH Cons into a squad of PG in cover, enable hit the dirt at the PG face, Cons won.

Is it a fucking joke?
Some "armed civilians" kick the ass of "Well Trained Elite" German soldier?

Imo there is a serious problem with the following that nobody seems to be paying attention to. People, please consider the following:

One unit has:
-Oorah
-Hit the Dirt
-Merge
-PPsh upgrade
-AT Nades
-Molotovs
-Can build Sandbags
-Vet ability
-(and, latently, 6 models with which to recover weapons from the field)

This is a patently ridiculous amount of abilities and upgrades.
At the very least, Oorah and Hit the Dirt should be mutually exclusive.

Imo there is a serious problem with the following that nobody seems to be paying attention to. People, please consider the following:

One unit has:
-Oorah
-Hit the Dirt
-Merge
-PPsh upgrade
-AT Nades
-Molotovs
-Can build Sandbags
-Vet ability
-(and, latently, 6 models with which to recover weapons from the field)

This is a patently ridiculous amount of abilities and upgrades.
At the very least, Oorah and Hit the Dirt should be mutually exclusive.

It's important for the conscripts to have upgrades and abillites though because that's how they scale into the late game and I actually really like having all those options. I do however of agree with the HTD ability though, feels a little off tbh, maybe a solution would be a slight lowering of DPS of the squad while it's active, because it's too easy to use aggressively right now in combination with Hoor-ah. And there isn't really too many drawbacks, sure your vulnerable to grenades but retreating is still an option...
Lowering DPS would mean that it was used by units who were:
-about to get suppressed
-need to stay where they are (wait for reinforcements or to cap a point)
-Trying to lengthen engagements for support units (snipers, mortars)

New horrible op : the ooold base rush with flamers ... 3HT 3Flamers, demo charge on one base bunker, then the penal battalion with flamer upgrade (LOL)

Reverting the shrek change and allowing one panzershrek to be purhcased at a time - but keeping the 60 muni cost - would help a lot with making the standard conscript +/- t1 into T34 spam a lot less difficult to play against, as three MP44s is still pretty lethal vs infantry.

Beyond maintaining the anti-inf capacity of the shrek squad, it would allow for better flanking of enemy armor as you can spread out your shreks, and it also would let your shreks stay on the field longer overall.