WEHRMACHT=RUBBISH

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 07:30 AMAssaultPlazma

so im curious why do so many axis heavy players complain about the fact the IS-2 beats a Tiger I in a 1v1?
Do you guys understand the IS-2 was better than the tiger in every way except reload speed due to having to load a propellant charge and a shell, and raw penetration which was largely a moot point anway? If anything a IS-2 should beat a Tiger II....

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 08:24 AMdaspoulos

Is2 fired 2 rounds per minute, and had around 160mm of penetration. They would not penetrate king tigers frontally. Only due to poor quality metals did they fracture the armor plating. Tiger 2s were better than is2s.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 08:24 AMdaspoulos

Is2 fired 2 rounds per minute, and had around 160mm of penetration. They would not penetrate king tigers frontally. Only due to poor quality metals did they fracture the armor plating. Tiger 2s were better than is2s.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 08:49 AMMidconflict

So then there is no reason that my IS2 shouldn't be pening king tiger like 75% of the time right. RElIC make it happen.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 08:49 AMMidconflict

So then there is no reason that my IS2 shouldn't be pening king tiger like 75% of the time right. RElIC make it happen.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 09:24 AMdaspoulos

You seem to not know much about anything in regards to how these vehicles actually performed. Let me be a little clearer. The is2 could not penetrate the king tiger frontally, in a few situations where king tigers with poor quality alloys were used the frontal plate of a king tiger would eventually crack after a few hits. This has nothing to do with actual intended performance or faulty design. Its more to do with indirect means such as low resources for the german war effort. Do you also blame tanks for the countries inability to provide fuel for it as well?

Is2s did not penetrate king tiger tanks under normal circumstances. For gods sake learn a little something about ww2 before you try to argue balance in terms of historical nature.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 09:26 AMBurts

The king tiger KWK 43 couldn't penetrate the IS-2 front armor under "normal" circumstances either. Infact on paper IS-2 was completely immune from the front, just like the king tiger.

However this really was not the case in reality.


IS-2 is more on par with the KT than the tiger if we go IRL. However, in game it must be balanced with the tiger I, since they both cost the same.


Of course we could make the IS-2 like a KT and make it cost like 320 fuel or something.. But i dont think thats a good idea.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 09:36 AMdaspoulos

I never did like the matchup for tiger and is2, but I also really dislike the is2 having a 6 second reload and a highly innacurate gun with a low damage model. I'd be all for a better is2 with a 240 damage model 9-11 second reload, more accurate gun, and possible frontal armor increase for say a cost of 250 fuel.There is an area that involves keeping historical accuracy to a minimum though. For the is2 to have such a short reload and only cost 230 fuel its going to have to be gimped in some areas. Im unsure about angling and such but the king tiger and is2 were roughly similar in terms of frontal armor. But I have not heard is2s being impenetrable like I've heard the king tiger being impenetrable. (except for certain shots going through the turret). ATleast on the western front that is.

Another thing I don't suppose you've heard the account of Karl Korner:http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64873

Is2s were able to be knocked out, the gun on the king tiger was one of the best anti tank guns in the german army. With around 200mm of penetration, considering the angling of the is2 I don't think it had over 200mm of protection. Though I could be wrong.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 09:24 AMdaspoulos

You seem to not know much about anything in regards to how these vehicles actually performed. Let me be a little clearer. The is2 could not penetrate the king tiger frontally, in a few situations where king tigers with poor quality alloys were used the frontal plate of a king tiger would eventually crack after a few hits. This has nothing to do with actual intended performance or faulty design. Its more to do with indirect means such as low resources for the german war effort. Do you also blame tanks for the countries inability to provide fuel for it as well?

Is2s did not penetrate king tiger tanks under normal circumstances. For gods sake learn a little something about ww2 before you try to argue balance in terms of historical nature.

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 10:46 AMCardboard Tank

That illustration is likely false. The KT hull was never ever penetrated in the war. And there it says that from more than a km away it was penetrated? I call bullshit.

People see the IS-2 and think it´s a godlike tank. They however like to ignore the horrendous flaws it had.

Errors such as piss-poor accuracy due to the gun having to be leveled to its original position in order to reload. After ever shot the gun had to be leveled and aimed at the target again and again.

Errors such as an increased reload time, giving it less than half the rate of fire of normal tanks.

Frontal armor flaws on the early version (drivers hatch), which resulted in Panzer IV and StuGs fighting the early version effectively from the front.

A gun unsuitable for long range combat. The trajectory was bent due to the weight of the shell.

The IS-2 was hopelessly outclassed by the King Tiger, which of course had its own flaws. However in a regular engagements the 88mm was more than sufficient to defeat IS-2s even at 2km.

Show Spoiler

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 07:30 AMAssaultPlazma

so im curious why do so many axis heavy players complain about the fact the IS-2 beats a Tiger I in a 1v1?
Do you guys understand the IS-2 was better than the tiger in every way except reload speed due to having to load a propellant charge and a shell, and raw penetration which was largely a moot point anway? If anything a IS-2 should beat a Tiger II....

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 10:46 AMCardboard Tank

That illustration is likely false. The KT hull was never ever penetrated in the war. And there it says that from more than a km away it was penetrated? I call bullshit.

People see the IS-2 and think it´s a godlike tank. They however like to ignore the horrendous flaws it had.

Errors such as piss-poor accuracy due to the gun having to be leveled to its original position in order to reload. After ever shot the gun had to be leveled and aimed at the target again and again.

Errors such as an increased reload time, giving it less than half the rate of fire of normal tanks.

Frontal armor flaws on the early version (drivers hatch), which resulted in Panzer IV and StuGs fighting the early version effectively from the front.

A gun unsuitable for long range combat. The trajectory was bent due to the weight of the shell.

The IS-2 was hopelessly outclassed by the King Tiger, which of course had its own flaws. However in a regular engagements the 88mm was more than sufficient to defeat IS-2s even at 2km.

Show Spoiler

Tiger tank analysis

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4. Effectiveness of the main armament
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A few combat examples:

• 21Jul1944, area of Iwaczow (Poland): 1 Tiger I destroys 1 JS-1 at 4000m ! (Schneider)
• 6Mar1945, area of Seregelyes (Hungary). 2 Tiger II’s destroy 6 JS-2’s at 2000m (Schneider)
• 19Apr 1945, Bollersdorf (Germany): 4 Tiger 2 attacked and destroyed 120 T-34-85 and JS-2’s, at ranges of 1,5 – 3km. The battle raged for a few hours, with about 30 T-34s destroyed during the night. (All tank commanders were given the Knight Cross on the 28th of April)
• 20Apr 1945, Klostendorf, Germany: 1 Tiger 2 of the SS-103rd Panzer destroyed 13 soviet tanks at ranges of 2-4km.

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Examples:
• 13th March 1945, Hungary: 16 King Tigers of the 509th Heavy Tank Battalion attack 24 entrentched ISU-152’s. In a ferocious battle, all the soviet SP artillery was knocked-out, but 3 Tigers were destroyed, 13 heavily damaged and put out of action for days or weeks.
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• 27th of Dec 1943: Mr Wendoerff leads his single Tiger tank against a T-34 column. He destroys the first and last tanks and then picks off each of the others. 11 T-34s destroyed.
• 12th of Jan 1944. 5 Tigers from the 508th Schw.-tank battalion fall into an ambush set up with 5 T-34-85s near a forest. The leading Tiger takes 20 AP hits, none penetrates. The other 4 Tigers open fire and destroy all 5 T-34s.
• 7th of Fev 1944- 8 Tigers remain out of fuel while retreating near Tatjanowka, Ukraine. They keep the enemy at a distance until fuel-trucks arrive. 20 soviet tanks are destroyed. No tank manages to close at less than 1000m. No Tiger lost.
• 7th of April 1944 – 3 Tigers engage a soviet armored brigade. 24 enemy tanks are destroyed for no loss.
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• 22nd of June 1944 – Mr Rohrig leads 4 Tigers in the area around Maritima, Italy. They engage a formation of 25 Shermans. 11 are set alight, the remaining 14 crews open the hatches and flee, leaving the tanks to the Germans. No losses.
• 11th of July 1944 – battle of Colombelle, south of Caen. Commander von Rosen leads 12 Tigers against a formation of about 20 Sherman tanks. During the night, the Tigers approach at maximum speed and open fire. The Shermans respond, dozens of hits bouncing off the frontal armors. In 5 minuntes, 12 Sherman explode or burn, and 2 more are abandoned by their crews; the others retreat. No loss.
• 28-29th of June 1944 – 18 Tigers of the 505th counter-attack around the Bobr river (PL) against 2 soviet armored columns (60, 30 tanks respectively). 55 enemy tanks are knocked-out [unknown number destroyed], for the loss of 6 Tigers.
• 23rd of May 1944 – one of the very few massed attacks of Tiger tanks. 40 Tigers of the 508th attack towards Cisterna-Latina (IT). All 15 US tanks in the area are destroyed. 1 Tiger damaged.
• 8th of Aug 1944 – 7 Tigers of the 102nd destroy 15 Shermans near Chenedolle; 1 Tiger damaged.
• 9oth of Aug 1944 – battle for Hill140, Normandy. 13 Tigers and several Pz-IV of the 12th SS Panzer counter-attack against elements of the Canadian II corps (with 55 tanks). The Tigers take position on the hill and start pounding at long range. 47 Canadian tanks are knocked-out, no Tiger lost.
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Battle of Oka River, Russia, part of the battle of Kursk, 1943
30 TigerI engage a large (over 100 tanks) Russian armored formation on the open fields. They opened fire at over 2km, scoring hits early. 42 T-34 destroyed, the rest fled. 1 Tiger was lost to enemy tank fire.

Battle of Collombelle, Normandy, part of the battle for Caen, 1944
12 TigerI attacked in the night a formation of 75mm Shermans. 12 Shermans were destroyed, 2 captured, 3 Tigers lightly damaged (repaired in 3 days or less). The battle was in the open terrain, no ambush, no air cover.

Battle of Tatjanowka, Ukraine, part of the strategic German retreat, 1944
8 TigerI remain without fuel out in the open fields. A large (over 30) formation of soviet tanks approaches them. 20 are destroyed, the rest flee; no Tiger lost or severely damaged.

Battle of Maritima, Italy, part of the battles for the Gustave line, 1944
4 TigerI engage a formation of 25 US Shermans. 11 are burned, the rest are abandoned by their crews. All Tigers moderately damaged.

Battle for Grunow, Germany, part of the final drive to Berlin, 1945
8 TigerII, occupying a small hill, engage a formation of over 100 soviet tanks. They open fire from over 4km. 70 enemy tanks are claimed knocked-out for no loss.

Battle for Bollersdorf, Germany, part of the final drive to Berlin, 1945
4 TigerII are attacked on the open by 30 T-34-85s. All soviet tanks are knocked-out [unknown number destroyed]. No Tiger lost.
Bibliography:
books
• Scheider, Tigers in combat, I and II
• Jentz – King Tiger heavy tank
• Jentz – Tiger 1 heavy tank
• Jentz – Germany’s Tiger 1 and Tiger II. Design. Production. Modifications.
• Buckley – British armor in Normandy campaign 1944

Jump back to quoted post7 Mar 2015, 11:33 AMAffe

Yep.
Here are a few interesting combat examples of the King Tigers and Tigers:

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3722