reasoning for putting a flak gun on the OKW base building?

The few times i play allies, killing okw tier4 building has never been a issue.

I hate in 1v1 when he places it by his cutoff. I can deal with it when he places aggressively so I actually have a chance to kill it, but when it's on his cutoff literally the entire battle is forced to take place on YOUR cutoff because you can't decap anywhere near that thing.

Quit kidding yourselves about AT gun being reliable way of bringing it down, unless you send 2+ medium tanks, a heavy tank, or always target your arty on it, it's not going down, especially considering how fast sturms can repair it b/n arty shots.

I think they could fix this problem and at least partially Schreck spam if they made this thing a munitions upgrade. So you can either spend 90 munitions on Schreck, or save 120 to get HQ. But you shouldn't be able to lock your cutoff for the entire first 3/4 of the game for free and force opponent to dedicate significant force of his army just attacking one thing for the POSSIBILITY to harass your cutoff.

Axis players (especially OKW players) can only offer counters that look good and work on paper. In practice more times then not these plans don't work. here are some problems with these paper arguments.

First, unlike bunkers (which got their health nerfed for this reason) the flak HQ has a lot of health. Takes 2 demos, 3 sachels and at least 1 minute of at fire, and like 2 minute of good mortor fire. Giving the OKW more then enough time to deal with the problem. (note SP can repair thought most of these methods)

Second, at guns and mortors are just too easy to push off. Granted you should always cover them with you army, but 9 time out of ten the flak base in next to the FHQ. this means the OKW army has no problem attacking you over and over again till you have to run back to your base. Then the SP come in and repair all your progress.

Third, Flak HQ is equal in the early game and even into mid game to at least half of the allies army. Like many of the paper axis strategist said, it will take combined arms to take out the Flak base. Example is AT gun and mortor, and some inf to cover them or 2 med tanks. If you can't see the problem with a single unit having this much power projection then you haven't played enough CoH2.

At the end of the day the problem with the OKW Flack HQ is not that it cant be killed (I have killed many, and if the OKW is New it is a 100% certainty that i will), or that it can kill tanks, and inf with ease. The problem is that it is a free unit that come out way to early, and has the power projection of a dam tiger tank, with no pop cost.

I know someone will say other wise, but yes the Flack HQ is free, just like every tech unit in the OKW and US tech system. You pay for the tech, (which are for the most part cheaper then the OST and SOT) anything else is free. granted i think people would still by the Flack HQ if it wasn't a tech building lol.

Still even with this people will still defend the Flak HQ. Therefor before we can come to an agreement about it, we need to offer some numbers. After all numbers don't lie. I suggest that some one look at every replay of rommes latest tournament. We can all agree that some of the best player played in the tournament, who can use every unit to its fullest. These replays will make a nice data group.

Lets look at these things for the data.(if you have a suggestion for something else to look at go for it.)

1. how many games was a Flak HQ destroyed.
2. Lets also take note of the amount and types of units used, if one was destroyed.
3. time the base was placed and were
4. how long the base stayed up
5. how many games were the allied won without destroying the Flack HQ
6. how many games were the allied lost without destroying the Flack HQ
7. how many times the allied attacked the FLack HQ

these number wouldnt give 100% truth to the argument either way, but these numbers would give perspective about force the FLak HQS projection.

This building is the rotten core of OKW design. Locks down large areas and helps the OKW in his quest for the super Heavies. Osther need to bleed their own soldiers and fight for the game, fight for the Panthers and tigers. OKW just needs to place this truck somewhere near a fuel point and GG your half way there End game. This truck helps A LOT the OKW get their late game tanks, there is to much effort you need to put to destroy it and some times one unit can completely force a retreat, enabling the OKW pioneers to repair it.

You do realize that you proposed doctrinal unit and tier unit just to counter building?
Im ok with making tier to counter tier but building? And doctrinal unit? Come on..

And while you are defending your at gun his blob will move around whole map leaving you without a single point or just killing your blob and decrew at gun. And since you need at gun you dont have hmg to stop the blob.

This one is epic hehe, exaggerate moar MAOR!!

axis only player defends axis stuff...

Placing it behind a shotblocker, invalidates all US counters to it until multiple tanks can be fielded. That's just wrong.

axis only player defends axis stuff...

Dont bother with him. I showed him that it can kill a Sherman and guess what, no answer

Placing it behind a shotblocker, invalidates all US counters to it until multiple tanks can be fielded. That's just wrong.

And when you are trying to get it with Shermans, Pak43 is sniping you

Placing it behind a shotblocker, invalidates all US counters to it until multiple tanks can be fielded. That's just wrong.

friendly reminder that anti tank guns can shoot through hedges using attack ground.

just my 2 cents, BUT flak HQ is definitely NOT the reason why OKW is strong right now. killing the flak hq isnt actually that difficult. basically what you do is set up indirect fire + 1 at gun + suppression platforms in addition to all your infantry just outside of the flak hq range, and you just barrage it/at gun it to death. obviously the OKW player(s) will try to counter attack your position, and thats where suppression platforms come into play. you just suppress okw squads, force the retreat and continue killing the hq.
with sight its really easy to actually kill the hq with at guns, but usually the only way to get sight is pathfinders or some sort of off map recon.

with soviets basically you want 1 or 2 120mm or 82mm either one works fine, atleast one at gun, and one or two maxims + all your cons just sitting bheind green cover. this is like a really hard position for the axis to push on.
with USF you want to have at gun/jackson + 50cal or fighting positions + ur rifles just sitting in green. usf have to kind of rely more on direct fire so i find pathfinders are the best to providing sight.

now the REAL problem is obers. obers kind of throw a wrench in all your attempts at infantry based pushes because theyre just so good at killing infantry at range. they can decrew at guns very quickly and are just a pain in the ass to deal with. even still, if youre MGs are positioned correctly you can force them to retreat.

other less conventional ways to kill flak hqs that ive done include:
2x recon pathfinder arty. itll instantly kill it
smoke + 2x demo + follow up. 2 demos will bring the hq down extremely low, youll need like one or two shots from a tank or AT gun to finish it off
3x satchel charge. ive never actually done this because i dont go t1 but theoretically 3x satchels does enough damage. to get close youll probably have to smoke it.

that being said, taking out flak HQs requires quite a bit of preparation and situational awareness, and depending on the location of the flak hq, can be very difficult. however, destroying it significantly (i mean fucking significantly) increases your chances of winning because it 1. opens up a portion of the map, 2. prevents panther and ober production for another 3 minutes at minimum AND forces the OKW player to spend 70 fuel to gain access to those units again, further delaying and fuel purchase. plus its a huge morale hit for the players and can make them surrender.

friendly reminder that anti tank guns can shoot through hedges using attack ground.

just my 2 cents, BUT flak HQ is definitely NOT the reason why OKW is strong right now. killing the flak hq isnt actually that difficult. basically what you do is set up indirect fire + 1 at gun + suppression platforms in addition to all your infantry just outside of the flak hq range, and you just barrage it/at gun it to death. obviously the OKW player(s) will try to counter attack your position, and thats where suppression platforms come into play. you just suppress okw squads, force the retreat and continue killing the hq.
with sight its really easy to actually kill the hq with at guns, but usually the only way to get sight is pathfinders or some sort of off map recon.

with soviets basically you want 1 or 2 120mm or 82mm either one works fine, atleast one at gun, and one or two maxims + all your cons just sitting bheind green cover. this is like a really hard position for the axis to push on.
with USF you want to have at gun/jackson + 50cal or fighting positions + ur rifles just sitting in green. usf have to kind of rely more on direct fire so i find pathfinders are the best to providing sight.

Problem is, USF can't get AT Gun and HMG (not to mention 480 MP indirect fire...)
Best way to deal with it is to drop smoke barrage and use demo from Paras but that's damn expesinve when compare to soviets.

T70 recon mode + ZiS, SU85, 120, 82, smoke + demo... Many many ways but for USF it's huge pain.

Problem is, USF can't get AT Gun and HMG (not to mention 480 MP indirect fire...)
Best way to deal with it is to drop smoke barrage and use demo from Paras but that's damn expesinve when compare to soviets.

T70 recon mode + ZiS, SU85, 120, 82, smoke + demo... Many many ways but for USF it's huge pain.

they can with airborne. in 2v2s and higher youll want your teammate(s) to help you as well, since the flak HQ is big objective that you and your team should try very hard to destroy.

if you dont go airborne, and LT tier, a jackson replaces the AT gun. obviously your attack on the flak HQ will be delayed since the jackson comes out later than an AT gun. if you go captain tier, fighting pits + enough riflemen in green cover are a big enough deterrent in dealing with enemy infantry.

in addition its helpful to have stolen paks or mg42s obviously.

Hahahahahaha noobs how pathetic cant even kill a shitty flak truck (I'm being sarcastic btw)

But in all seriousness hate the damage this thing can do to medium tanks hope relic nerfs the damage it does to mediums adleast

Hahahahahaha noobs how pathetic cant even kill a shitty flak truck

This, and it should be serious. Dat thing it's so killable by any kind of ballistic weapon not to mention SU-85 by itself or AT guns of all kinds, that I can't even begin to tell.
Pro tip: You know where it is but you can't see it and you only have an AT gun? Hit attack ground button and click on the slot the damn thing is settled.

Yes you can't rush it with a medium tank alone, and that's FINE in my book because of reasons stated above. Ah, don't tell me that attacking it with medium tanks is all that you can think off!

This, and it should be serious. Dat thing it's so killable by any kind of ballistic weapon not to mention SU-85 by itself or AT guns of all kinds, that I can't even begin to tell.
Pro tip: You know where it is but you can't see it and you only have an AT gun? Hit attack ground button and click on the slot the damn thing is settled.

Yes you can't rush it with a medium tank alone, and that's FINE in my book because of reasons stated above. Ah, don't tell me that attacking it with medium tanks is all that you can think off!

Well I dont find it hard to kill I just pop smoke and put demos on it as soviets or use the
M8A1 Howitzer Motor Carriage both ways I find effective and tend to be available to me but the use of at guns as you mention is a viable option but shot blockers prevent it from being effective but you can always flank it I just wish it doesnt rape my beautiful shermans I disappointed Brad Pitt because of that thing

This, and it should be serious. Dat thing it's so killable by any kind of ballistic weapon not to mention SU-85 by itself or AT guns of all kinds.

At the moment players mostly even play T1 or T2. Forget T3 and T4 as soviets.
It's all about Conspam to IS2/T34. And yet these people complain about no counter to the Flak HQ.

At the moment players mostly even play T1 or T2. Forget T3 and T4 as soviets.
It's all about Conspam to IS2/T34. And yet these people complain about no counter to the Flak HQ.

Fucking little Bitches all they do is build heavy tanks and right click, that shit is too mainstream medium tanks all the way you can get a t34 and take it behind a panther and ram it in the ass but you cant do that with an is2 thats why t34's better you can build like 3 t34's instead of one is2 shoot 3 germans at once, shoot 1 german 3 times
Seriously who would rely on call ins you should always have a back up plans incase things goes to shit and stuff die, all these people they just choose their commanders before they even queue up their orders

But Im not talking about the people on the forums most of you seem reasonable logical players but you guys have to agree that heavy tanks are too mainstream now its so 2014

Please excuse my language

At the moment players mostly even play T1 or T2. Forget T3 and T4 as soviets.
It's all about Conspam to IS2/T34. And yet these people complain about no counter to the Flak HQ.

So let me get this straight: people are complaining that it's hard to adapt to the tactical situation. Beautiful. I want to do THIS and through THIS I have to be able to counter anything.

You mentioned T2. T2 has an AT gun.

I hope they are not expecting playing T1 into T3 or callins and efficiently kill a well placed T4. Even in this situation, they have doctrine choices with 120 mm mortars.

I admit that is harder to deal with T4 in USF shoes untill jacksons/m10 arrive, but you can use AT guns at least. Soviets should not complain about OKW t4, realy.

I just wish it doesnt rape my beautiful shermans I disappointment Brad Pitt because of that thing

Ah, well since you put it dat way... I can understand . Brad Pitt would be mad. But still, I think if you use his tank (Ez8) you can achieve better results.

The thing is annoying on 1v1 rather on any mode above it since you have more tools on those.

I hate in 1v1 when he places it by his cutoff. I can deal with it when he places aggressively so I actually have a chance to kill it, but when it's on his cutoff literally the entire battle is forced to take place on YOUR cutoff because you can't decap anywhere near that thing.

Quit kidding yourselves about AT gun being reliable way of bringing it down, unless you send 2+ medium tanks, a heavy tank, or always target your arty on it, it's not going down, especially considering how fast sturms can repair it b/n arty shots.

I think they could fix this problem and at least partially Schreck spam if they made this thing a munitions upgrade. So you can either spend 90 munitions on Schreck, or save 120 to get HQ. But you shouldn't be able to lock your cutoff for the entire first 3/4 of the game for free and force opponent to dedicate significant force of his army just attacking one thing for the POSSIBILITY to harass your cutoff.

Well said, read this please ^. One of the main pillars of COH2 is to harass your opponent's cut off points and map control and this building alone negates this.