Ostheer: What is to be done?

Not to mention there are NUMEROUS replays in Imperial Dane's cast which shows Osth using STugs to counter IS2s. 2-3 Stugs are one of the best counters against IS2s due to vet 1 ability, range and ROF.

PGrens are fine, learn how to use them.

Strange,pros don't bother using them much as AI either.I guess they need to learn too.Play ost more before barking redundant nonsense.

To bad the only Ostheer heavy tank in the game is worse than the Soviet (with the exeption of the KV1) one despite costing the same

The Jadgpanther is only marginally more heavy than the Regular Panther, and has no turret. If the Panther can exist why can't it's much cooler cousin.

I dont see a big issue in ostheer. The only major thing that comes to mind really is the T1 lieut vehicles of USF that put on so much pressure on to you its very hard to maintain map control, other than that its mostly fine. In 1v1 it depends alot on the maps.

I dont see a big issue in ostheer. The only major thing that comes to mind really is the T1 lieut vehicles of USF that put on so much pressure on to you its very hard to maintain map control, other than that its mostly fine. In 1v1 it depends alot on the maps.

And how do you propose to solve that with extreme power rifles vs grens,free units for usf,brutal teching for ost?Unreliable mg42 and nerfed pak to add .

And how do you propose to solve that with extreme power rifles vs grens,free units for usf,brutal teching for ost?Unreliable mg42 and nerfed pak to add .

1) 280 MP Rifles should out do damage vs 240 MP Grens (Not to mention Rifles reinforcement cost)
2) Free units that require fuel to unlock? Free fuel for OKW to tech first? cant compare apple to oranges.
3) Brutal teching only between T3 - T4; other than its fine.(I am surprised you don't complain about Sov teching but that is bc you only play Osth)
4) Pak had to be nerfed; its ROF was ridiculous and nullified USF medium armor.

PGrens are fine, learn how to use them.

How do you "use" them properly when 1 shell with out warning will instantly kill your squad, and were not talking about a 120 or howitzer shell, we talking a 82 mortar shell or Scott shell. They are very fragile and expensive.

Loosing to IS2 is L2P issue most of the time. IS2 is not OMGWTFWUUUTGARDENYOURELIC unit. There are many useful commanders against IS2. My best is 9 secs to kill IS2 without Tiger or Elephnat. Bad Pak43 commanders? The one with Pak43, Command Pz4, smoke, railway arty is one of the best. Thanks to this commander I was able to kill IS2 in less than 10 secs.

Tiger + 2xPak40 is a killer against IS2. You dont have to even use your Tiger against it. Focus on support while Paks get veterancy, stun and finish.

Tiger + JU strike

Two very good doctrines with Elephant.
Countless with Tiger.
3 (I guess) with Pak43, one of them is great, two are decent.

And you are saying that Ost has no counter to IS2 except Elephant..

Losing to an IS2 is not a L2P issue, in every stat except ROF the IS2 wins out over the Tiger. The Pak40 can be easily 1 shot by the IS2, infact there isn't a single Ostheer MP based AT unit that isn't shot by a IS2 unless it misses.

And the pak43 is in a fairly shit commander, Command Pz4 is a waste of fuel unless you are floating a shitload (which you shouldn't), smoke is good, hull down it situational, and rail away artillery is a giant waste of munitions in an already munition starved faction.

The elefant is excellent, and comes with 2 good doctrines, Tiger comes with a few good ones (but in the current medium and IS2 spam meta Elefant will always get you more bang for your buck), and every Pak43 commander for Ostheer is just not viable in the current meta.

The Pak43 works for OKW because OKW is based around forward bases and entrenching, Ostheer really can't afford to do that as much with how fragile bunkers are and how expensive the upgrades area.

Ostheer has no reliable counter to IS2 spam except the Elefant, because the fragility of Ostheer infantry and AT weapons. The elefant is mobile (enough) and can take a few shots to the front. The elefant also does well versus medium armor spam, while a Tiger won't get you very far before it's force back again and again.

I dont see a big issue in ostheer. The only major thing that comes to mind really is the T1 lieut vehicles of USF that put on so much pressure on to you its very hard to maintain map control, other than that its mostly fine. In 1v1 it depends alot on the maps.

The DPS in games above 2's gets so high that Ostheer basically becomes a support faction for OKW, just making fuel caches and calling in fuel drops due to the fact instead of 1 horde of riflemen and shocks it's 2 or 3 or god knows 4 hordes of shocks and rifles.

How do you "use" them properly when 1 shell with out warning will instantly kill your squad, and were not talking about a 120 or howitzer shell, we talking a 82 mortar shell or Scott shell. They are very fragile and expensive.



Losing to an IS2 is not a L2P issue, in every stat except ROF the IS2 wins out over the Tiger. The Pak40 can be easily 1 shot by the IS2, infact there isn't a single Ostheer MP based AT unit that isn't shot by a IS2 unless it misses.

And the pak43 is in a fairly shit commander, Command Pz4 is a waste of fuel unless you are floating a shitload (which you shouldn't), smoke is good, hull down it situational, and rail away artillery is a giant waste of munitions in an already munition starved faction.

The elefant is excellent, and comes with 2 good doctrines, Tiger comes with a few good ones (but in the current medium and IS2 spam meta Elefant will always get you more bang for your buck), and every Pak43 commander for Ostheer is just not viable in the current meta.

The Pak43 works for OKW because OKW is based around forward bases and entrenching, Ostheer really can't afford to do that as much with how fragile bunkers are and how expensive the upgrades area.

Ostheer has no reliable counter to IS2 spam except the Elefant, because the fragility of Ostheer infantry and AT weapons. The elefant is mobile (enough) and can take a few shots to the front. The elefant also does well versus medium armor spam, while a Tiger won't get you very far before it's force back again and again.



The DPS in games above 2's gets so high that Ostheer basically becomes a support faction for OKW, just making fuel caches and calling in fuel drops due to the fact instead of 1 horde of riflemen and shocks it's 2 or 3 or god knows 4 hordes of shocks and rifles.

How IS2 can wipe Pak40? Like I said, L2P if you are using Paks in range of IS2.
Just had a game on Stalingrad. KV8, 2 IS2s (in fact 3 through whole game) +ZiS vs my 2 Paks40 and 2 Tigers. Of course I lost, it's Stalingrad, right? But I was able to kill 2 ISs and KV8. I lost 1 Pak and 1 Tiger to do that. Double Paks where just sniping IS2s with stun shots. It's just the way you use them, L2P, not OPness of IS2.

Command Pz4 is a waste? Tell this to OST players vs USF. Mobile defense with Puma and Pz4 is one of the best commanders. You can't go for Pz4, you are pushed back so you can't wait for late game Tiger. What shall you do? Call Pz4 to retake fuel, cover it with Paks40 and tech to Panther OR/AND build Pak43.

If I was able to counter IS2 on such map, imagine map like Minsk Pocket. Wide, open, perfect for Paks.

1) 280 MP Rifles should out do damage vs 240 MP Grens (Not to mention Rifles reinforcement cost)
2) Free units that require fuel to unlock? Free fuel for OKW to tech first? cant compare apple to oranges.
3) Brutal teching only between T3 - T4; other than its fine.(I am surprised you don't complain about Sov teching but that is bc you only play Osth)
4) Pak had to be nerfed; its ROF was ridiculous and nullified USF medium armor.

1. Grens cost more to reinforce, especially more painful early game as Ost cannot afford to bleed MP when getting their T2. Still not garbage as people say they are though. They do good work.

2. If you compare WFA to EFA, they get too many bonuses for their tech while the others get nothing. LMGs and rifle grenade are arguable, but that doesn't make up for the fact WFA have way cheaper tech than their EFA counterparts with added bonuses. Move their prices up is what I've been shifting towards in my mind rather than reduce the tech costs of other factions. (and change call-ins, but that's a different story)

3.320 MP 60 Fuel for BP 2 and the building versus USF 200 MP and 50 Fuel for LT. This takes much longer than the USF who do not need to be at base to build anything and USF starts with more fuel by 5 and generally have better map control, increasing said fuel income.


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Here are a few things I think needs to be done with Ostheer units(only stating the buffs. not what may or may not need to be nerfed):

1. MG42: made more consistent. It's not bad, but aside from a small traverse buff, the MG42 needs to not fire the tiniest bursts at times and be more cosistent vs units in yellow cover that mess with its suppression thanks to its long cooldown between bursts. (It's not actually a pop shooter as people say it is, though. Maybe a little lacking at max, but that's not its job)

2.221/2: needs better acceleration and an armour buff. Also a new model since its current one is huge resulting it getting stuck on everything. Makes it more survivable vs small-arms which it needs and easier to get out since its poor acceleration often gets it killed as it needs to be stationary to be effective.

3. StuG: Penetration boost back to its old values, would help versus heavies if you're stuck on T3.

4. Sniper: HP boost. Self-explanatory.

5. Brummbar: less vet requirements. Expensive AI vehicles are a pain to rank up when you are primarily firing on cheap infantry.

6. Panzer Werfer: Maybe more AoE or just knock its cooldown down to be the lower to make up for the fact its damage is now relatively the same with Kats while having less rockets and range.

7: Artillery Officer: Brought down to 5-6 population. He's just an unupgradeable gren squad which has munition abilities. Well, actually he's worse than that since the Luger is only does damage within hugging distance. He's currently 9, why?

8: Ostheer Panther: Boost RoF a touch. Possibly revert armour boost. I don't need a tank that's durable, even if its fast enough to run down allied tanks. I need something that can actually kill tanks since if I'm going for a Panther. Its high penetration doesn't help it versus the majority of Allied mediums where its poor RoF means it takes forever to chew through tanks with 640 hp. And misses really hurt this thing.

9: LeFH: Needs to fire more shells or have its cooldown shortened and less scatter. Could swap some MP for fuel to make howitzer easier to field as you need less MP, though having a hit on tech and vehicles.

10: Ostwind: Reduce cost or make it reload faster with less scatter. I don't find it that impressive in terms of AI compared to the P4 as it spends more time reloading than firing and it's not even that accurate. Sure it's AA, but that's its secondary/tertiary role for what it's going to be actually used for.

How IS2 can wipe Pak40? Like I said, L2P if you are using Paks in range of IS2.
Just had a game on Stalingrad. KV8, 2 IS2s (in fact 3 through whole game) +ZiS vs my 2 Paks40 and 2 Tigers. Of course I lost, it's Stalingrad, right? But I was able to kill 2 ISs and KV8. I lost 1 Pak and 1 Tiger to do that. Double Paks where just sniping IS2s with stun shots. It's just the way you use them, L2P, not OPness of IS2.

Command Pz4 is a waste? Tell this to OST players vs USF. Mobile defense with Puma and Pz4 is one of the best commanders. You can't go for Pz4, you are pushed back so you can't wait for late game Tiger. What shall you do? Call Pz4 to retake fuel, cover it with Paks40 and tech to Panther OR/AND build Pak43.

If I was able to counter IS2 on such map, imagine map like Minsk Pocket. Wide, open, perfect for Paks.

Eh no,, thats not how it works.
I've had this matchup alot the last days, IS-2 with ZiS against various Tiger commanders with Pak support, against solid opponents (rank 50-300 OH), and Shock Rifle offers the perfect synergy and abilites to dislodge and kill OH Pak lines and proceed to kill the Tiger.

First step: Locate the Paks and set up your angle. Also, and perhaps even more importantly, send in a sweeper as well. Against good players this is imperative. Second step: Flame barrage the Pak(s). Even if he is paying attention he might lose them, and in any case he has to move. If he has to move, he can't shoot you, cant stun you, etc. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance to simultaneously start the attack. In fact, ideally, it is best to get moving a little before the flame barrage goes in to ensure perfect timing. Third step: Send in the Hard AI (can be Shocks, can be KV-8, or both) along with the IS-2 to prioritise and kill whatever is left of the Paks. They, and not the Tiger, are main AT damage dealers in this OH setup. A Tiger takes literally forever to kill an IS-2 head-on. The DSHK on the IS-2 has absolutely brutal close range DPS, btw, which makes it a must-have upgrade. Fourth step: Proceed to kill or steal the decrewed Paks. The Tiger, once isolated, is not terribly dangerous to an IS-2, especially if you have ZiS guns plinking away at it.
Sounds formulaic? It is, and of course it has to be adjusted to any specific situations, but it tends to work very well.
The most dangerous thing to an IS-2 in any Tiger doctrine is not the Tiger, but the Stuka AT strafe of Lightning war btw. It dishes out ridiclous amounts of damage and can quickly shift the balance against you, so this is something to look out for.

In my experiences, whenever I see enemy IS2, I urgently go for Elefant or if not, PaK43. Tiger is just crap against IS2, absolutely.

How do you "use" them properly when 1 shell with out warning will instantly kill your squad, and were not talking about a 120 or howitzer shell, we talking a 82 mortar shell or Scott shell. They are very fragile and expensive.

.8 received accuracy modifier won't fix squad wipes by AoE. The unit is working as intended.

Strange,pros don't bother using them much as AI either.I guess they need to learn too.Play ost more before barking redundant nonsense.

The performance of the unit and the fact that wehrmacht simply can't "afford" pgrens due to manpower intense teching are two different things.

How IS2 can wipe Pak40? Like I said, L2P if you are using Paks in range of IS2.
Just had a game on Stalingrad. KV8, 2 IS2s (in fact 3 through whole game) +ZiS vs my 2 Paks40 and 2 Tigers. Of course I lost, it's Stalingrad, right? But I was able to kill 2 ISs and KV8. I lost 1 Pak and 1 Tiger to do that. Double Paks where just sniping IS2s with stun shots. It's just the way you use them, L2P, not OPness of IS2.

Command Pz4 is a waste? Tell this to OST players vs USF. Mobile defense with Puma and Pz4 is one of the best commanders. You can't go for Pz4, you are pushed back so you can't wait for late game Tiger. What shall you do? Call Pz4 to retake fuel, cover it with Paks40 and tech to Panther OR/AND build Pak43.

If I was able to counter IS2 on such map, imagine map like Minsk Pocket. Wide, open, perfect for Paks.

The Command Pz4 is extremely bad against USF, as the Jackson will punish it even harder than it does the Regular Pz4. It's good in the late game for if you have a fuel bloat and want to help entrench a postion, but it's not a main battle tank like the regular PzIV.

The IS2 can kill Pak40's because 1. Pak40's do not have a for sure pen against it from the front, and 2. Things will be follwing the IS2, things with very fast firing high damage weapons.

Double paks are a big MP investment, and how unabashedly fragile they are is insane.

.8 received accuracy modifier won't fix squad wipes by AoE. The unit is working as intended.

The fact is has a 4 man squad is what isn't work at intended, Rifles can wipe them just as easy at range than a mortar shell can. If your going to make them a 4 man squad the least you could do is give them some durability against infantry

The Command Pz4 is extremely bad against USF, as the Jackson will punish it even harder than it does the Regular Pz4. It's good in the late game for if you have a fuel bloat and want to help entrench a postion, but it's not a main battle tank like the regular PzIV.

The IS2 can kill Pak40's because 1. Pak40's do not have a for sure pen against it from the front, and 2. Things will be follwing the IS2, things with very fast firing high damage weapons.

Double paks are a big MP investment, and how unabashedly fragile they are is insane.

1. Watch top level replays. Puma and Command Pz4 are units that can save OST against USF.
2. Pak has much higher chances to penetrate IS2 than 57mm to penetrante Tiger, not to mention vetted Panther, King Tiger, Ele or Jadgtiger.
3. Double Pak40 is must have for OST.

1. Watch top level replays. Puma and Command Pz4 are units that can save OST against USF.
2. Pak has much higher chances to penetrate IS2 than 57mm to penetrante Tiger, not to mention vetted Panther, King Tiger, Ele or Jadgtiger.
3. Double Pak40 is must have for OST.

Elefant and Jadgtiger do counter IS2, but neither are relevant to the match up of a IS2 versus a Tiger (suffice to say they are better counters), vetted Panther is good but you would crucify me if I said the same thing about an IS2, and a King Tiger requires you build every OKW HQ and save up 260 unadjusted fuel.

Double Pak40 is a huge MP investment in an already MP starved faction, and Puma is a light vehicle and the commander PzIV is a low health/armor medium tank, both of which Zooks preform very well against.

Why would you willingly make tanks so you can fit perfectly into USF counters, it would be like making SU-85's to kill a Jadgtiger

Elefant and Jadgtiger do counter IS2, but neither are relevant to the match up of a IS2 versus a Tiger (suffice to say they are better counters), vetted Panther is good but you would crucify me if I said the same thing about an IS2, and a King Tiger requires you build every OKW HQ and save up 260 unadjusted fuel.

Double Pak40 is a huge MP investment in an already MP starved faction, and Puma is a light vehicle and the commander PzIV is a low health/armor medium tank, both of which Zooks preform very well against.

Why would you willingly make tanks so you can fit perfectly into USF counters, it would be like making SU-85's to kill a Jadgtiger

Stop talking bullshits.
Watch best 1v1 USF vs OST replays. Then we will talk.
I recommend you Quentin vs Luvnest in first place.

1) 280 MP Rifles should out do damage vs 240 MP Grens (Not to mention Rifles reinforcement cost)
2) Free units that require fuel to unlock? Free fuel for OKW to tech first? cant compare apple to oranges.
3) Brutal teching only between T3 - T4; other than its fine.(I am surprised you don't complain about Sov teching but that is bc you only play Osth)
4) Pak had to be nerfed; its ROF was ridiculous and nullified USF medium armor.

1.Then buff mg42.And making grens 5 man won't beat rifle as dps remains SAME.Ostheer needs osme option against earlygame rifle slaughter.

2.Ost tech plus building to t2 which u must vs usf due to light vehicle -wasted manpower.Usf free unit on top of that-enough said.Play ost u'll know how it feels to be outnumbered.

3.Sov only tech 1 building and reliant on all-ins.Ost panther locked out.T3 and T4 both require heavy teching in manpower.Ostheer tech requires highest manpower-around 800.

4.And now ost is near defenseless vs usf light vehicle,and p4 ,stugs useless as usual vs jackson and easy 8.

Not to mention there are NUMEROUS replays in Imperial Dane's cast which shows Osth using STugs to counter IS2s. 2-3 Stugs are one of the best counters against IS2s due to vet 1 ability, range and ROF.

I missed this post by holy crap my sides have entered the 9th dimension, StuG's to counter IS2's.

StuG Ausf G Pen: 130.0/120.0/110.0 with 160 damage

IS2 Armor: Frontal armor 375.0 Rear Armor: 205.0

34% chance to pen at point blank range for StuG's, and I'm sure that IS2 will leave you alone while sitting right in it's face were it can't miss

I missed this post by holy crap my sides have entered the 9th dimension, StuG's to counter IS2's.

StuG Ausf G Pen: 130.0/120.0/110.0 with 160 damage

IS2 Armor: Frontal armor 375.0 Rear Armor: 205.0

34% chance to pen at point blank range for StuG's, and I'm sure that IS2 will leave you alone while sitting right in it's face were it can't miss

29% to penetrate at max range.
37% to penetrate King Tiger by Jackson.
I don't see huge difference.

Same about SU76 vs Tiger.

exactly, jacksons are shit against VI Bs if there is anything else around and SU76s aren't even thought about. the single advantage the stug has is the stun shot at vet.