Ukraine vs Russia conflict

Since it's scrap yard then why not start this thread. I doubt it break rules or sth)

I'm just curious what people think about this situation (eastern and western countries people)

What i can say about that (as one of most liberal, independent of mass media)



Ukraine always searched for opprotunity to create it's own country with no Russian influence, it started in WW2 (on bigger scale) with Ukraine nationalists forming it's own divisions and fighting for nazi germans against SU and even after nazis lost war they formed groups of partisants fighting SU (also known as banderoviets) till 1947-1948

I believe that non of you will disagree when i say that war crime organisation as Ukraine Nationalists (nazi types known as UPA) took the power in ukraine, eeven their prime minister belongs to UPA.

For those who don't know:

Show Spoiler

With the coup organized on Maidan (prob by UE and USA) Ukraine has now new government mostly (around 50%) consisting of UPA/banderovites (watch vids - black/red flags are UPA which dominated on Maidan) took the power, on of their first changed in constitution was about russian language - it was not allowed in Ukraine borders, since eastern borders of this country was dominated by russian, they wanted to liberate from this and create it's separate country (DPR, LPR, probably it will join later RF). Donbas region was known for it's military supplies so they took them to defend themselvs, while they had barelly chances to win, they probably asked Russians for any support, and since they were both russians, so support was given , not only weaponry but also soldiers (it's not official but obvious) now the conflict escalates because of ukraine government i believe.

Final statement: Crime organization took power in Ukraine, supported by western countries, they changed constitution that strikes at russian population mostly, they decide to defened but it'd be lost with no RF help, unofficial help arrives, conflict may now escalate cuz of Ukraine that are in lost possition since they can't retake Donbas region on themselves.

What you people think about all this situation on eastern Europe, will it be the beginning of WW3 or just short term conflict

Oh this thread is going to be good,I have my popcorn ready

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Final statement: Crime organization took power in Ukraine, supported by western countries,

a German perspective: the role of western countries/Germany in supporting a partly crime organization has never been discussed broadly. The image is still: we are the west. We are good. So is what we did. Putin is evil. He must change his behaviour because he is doing wrong.
That is the press echo.
On the other hand you now have people in the street here in Germany, demonstrating (PEGIDA). And one of their founding statements was: stop pushing towards war and escalation with Russia.

And on the topic of Russia, there is a fierce debate going on of media accusing the public of being an organized mob against media on exactly this topic, Ukraine.
It went so far that some newspapers changed their policies on user comments or closed them.

But I see little change in perspective. It has been like that for a while.

could be a fun thread.

I heard the government in Ukraine are Neo Nazis lol

Well, Barton pointed things out mostly. politfag

There are huge differences between what is really going on there and what is published to the mass, i.e. russia as the agressor and such bs.

Independent sources tell a whole different story. Barton is right about the current political powers, its just a big scam in the interest of very few people.

It is easy to be sceptical of mainstream media and government following recent events, such as the NSA conspiracy. However, it is folly to assume that government is a collective hivemind, with the sole intention of doing as little as possible for the people and as much as possible for themselves.

Even if that were the case, not every single person has the same definition of such.

For example, Ron Paul has spoken clearly against further involvement in Ukraine, while John McCain supports US military involvement. If both these people had only their own interests at heart and wanted to Garden the people as much as possible, they would have different 'self-interest' goals and thus garden the people in different manner.

Similarly, while there may be corrupt media organisations and governmental organisations, it is folly to assume every single journalist working for, for example, the New York Times or the Guardian to be a right-wing neo-nazi being paid by the government. After all, Snowden did formerly work for the NSA.

It falls to the accuracy and reliability of the information provided by these agencies, which is influenced although not 100% determined by the author. Other things to consider primarily included sources used and the power of these sources.



It is easy and entirely plausible to say that westerners have been agitating the situation in Ukraine. The USA/EU has paid anti-Russian protestors in Crimea, Russia has paid anti-Ukrainian protestors in Crimea, the Kiev government is 100% neo-nazi funded by the CIA, the Donbass Republic is neo-communist 100% funded by the FSB. However, while entirely plausible, such assumptions are not supported by credible evidence and are essentially meaningless to discuss by themselves.

That is, being funded by a neo-nazi CIA and being funded by a neo-communist FSB are not in themselves a crime against humanity.

Without going into what could be a docotoral thesis on the modern history/politics, I'll leave with this to consider.


Would the world, in 10,000 years, be an objectively worse place if everyone believed that Stalin saved the world from Space Invaders from the moon?

Would the world, in 10,000 years, be an objectively worse place in the French Revolution never took place?

If Germany won WW1?

If Germany won WW2?

I won't dwell publicly on the implications of these, especially the latter. But by thinking about these questions hopefully one can see that a lot of what is considered good and bad is strongly influenced by subjective personal experience. Thus, we are no different than these 'neo-nazi/communists' in terms of using personal beliefs and vindictions to decide what is right.

It is Ukraine-Ukraine (or, rather NATO-Russian by the hands of Ukrainians) conflict, but, anyway, Putin is idiot who decided to risk to ruin Russia once again for chance to get more territories and Black Sea trade ports which Russia does not need anyway. We cannot put Russia in order, lets put Ukraine in order - classical Russian way of doing things.

Only reason to fight over Ukraine was to prevent them to join NATO and, thus, prevent NATO from building more military bases near Russian borders, but i can't believe it was impossible to do without signing some sort of agreement.

Russia just suffering from yet another decade of incompetent dictators, and, honestly speaking, NATO have all rights to invade Ukraine after Russia annexed Crimea, but who will risk starting nuclear war?

Ukraine has now new government mostly (around 50%) consisting of UPA/banderovites (watch vids - black/red flags are UPA which dominated on Maidan) took the power

hahahaahh You are mistake, thay are not UPA/banderovites. Most of ukraininan politics works for oligarch or oligarch party. Another are millionaire and businessman. Some of tham change party every election, so only a little part of them are simpe politics and some of tham are just clown. The Svoboda (UPA/banderovites) party who was in parliament, after spring election are not in parliament (becouse there politics dont have nothing for people). Some people in new government are from foreign country .

on of their first changed in constitution was about russian language - it was not allowed in Ukraine borders, since eastern borders of this country was dominated by russian

It was no changed in constituion, it was just low (becouse change somthing in constituion its a very big cause and its not easy). Russian was only region langauge (if people vote for him, like another 18 language, and this low was not good) but it was mistake to off this low, becouse in that time we dont need it (have more problems),but Svoboda party do it with another . It so hard to explaine this low.
About language situation, i dont know how many people speak russian ( 30-40 or 50, 60 %), but russain language totally expelled ukrainian from TV, newspaper, magazine.We have so many newspaper, magazine in russian, some of tham are in ukrainian and only region newspaper are ukrainian (in West Ukrain and maybe middle). But language is not a problem fo people (only if thay are not stupid).
Maybe in all election Party Regions (Yanukovich party) always say that when thay go in parliament the russain language will be second national langauge. And always thay dont do it, so when people say somthing about russian language, thay must ask deputys from Party Regions why thay dont do election program.
Russian language dont harassment in Ukraine.
Conflict will be long, becouse ukraine politics are stupid (or thay do what West politics say).
Ukraine lost Donbass people (ye ye people, not region) and i dont see way how to back tham (some of tham) in Ukraine. I dont understand for what we fight. 1 question only, go Russia with DNR and LNR into another region of Ukraine or not. Oe thay need only Donbass region.
Peace to all.

COMRADE PUTIN ORDERS: SERVE ME WASHINGTON ON A PLATE

While Barton has a point..... guys please. Inb4 super shittalk and hate. And I am pretty sure that this forum is unpolitical.

Not that I expected a Western slant, but the Russian slant in here caught me way off guard.

I think that a majority of people didn't like corruption of the gouvernement and would change of president maybe.

The problem is that the west is PRO-West and the east is PRO-Russia.

Without the crimea, Of course a president pro-West was victorious in the last election. Because normaly East pro-Russia > West in % of people i think.

West people decided to make a public demonstration for kick Ianoukovich.

I think THAT NEO-NAZIS represented maybe 1% of people.

BUT THEY WERE NOT PACIFIC and USED WEAPON AGAINST POLICE, without them, i think that public demonstration would never kick Ianoukovich.
It's because of Neo-nazis with weapons that Police used weapons too i think.

And that's why It was game over for Ianoukovich.

After this and because Neo-Nazis had many minister because of their BIG IMPLICATION for the Victory of Maidan, EAST and Crima scared of Nazis .... so Crimea choosed the Russia.

The east wanted his independance i think, or maybe not ... Maybe a majority of people were not agree with the new gouvernement of Kiev but they didn't want the independance.

But in these situation, i think that's only "extremist" wich are the more violent and have weapons who have the biggest impact in the politic choice in these situations ...

So East claimed his indepedance, and OFC Poutine Help them with special forces or army because he want to keep his influence on a part of Ukraine.

That's my vision of the conflict Kappa

PS : but now with the last elections, Neo-Nazis have like 0 minister no ?

Im citizen of Ukraine, im study in Lviv university (not my native town though) and im offended by this thread. I dont care about history, but let's talk about those days.


>new government mostly (around 50%) consisting of UPA/banderovites

The only political party of the Ukraine who you can call "banderovietes/UPA" is "svoboda" and "Praviy sektor" . Actually they have no any power. There is only 7 deputies from "Svoboda" in verhovna rada and only 1 men from "Praviy sektor". Dmitro Yarosh, leader of the "Praviy sektor" had only 1% on the president election. The actual government (Porosheno, Yazenuk, Turchinov) havent any involvement to any national organization (and never had).

>on of their first changed in constitution was about russian language

Thats not true. This law was proposed and passed (about russian language) only in 2012. It wasnt a constitution change though. It was silly and not well thought out but it have passed. After revolution there were a propose to cancel this law from one of the deputies. It wasnt cancelled. Yea, dude, you can even read it in wikipedia (or official ukrainian website) - this law wasnt cancelled and still works.

In 23 years there were never any harassment of any nationality or language in Ukraine. Any harassment is punished by law.

>it was not allowed in Ukraine borders

Just no comments, you got to be really silly (not trying to offend you) if you really believed in that shit.

>Crime organization took power in Ukraine

Ok, tell me how this organization called, what people in it, and what crimes it did. Because i live in Ukraine and dont know such a one.

>they changed constitution that strikes at russian population mostly

As i said, they didnt.

Now let's talk about the situation at donbass and Ukraine
All leaders of those "republics" is russians. They got nationality of russia, they are citizens of russia they lived in russia. Easy to check if you dont believe me. Not all russiantalking people is russians however. There were no any constitution changes to harass russiantalking people and there were not such a harassment at all. Over half a million (almost 800k by non-official data) ppl of Donbass are refugees. Most of the students were disturbed over western/central Ukraine universities (60 were settled in my hostel just half a year ago). You think there is any harassment over them? Lviv is fascists capital in Ukraine if believe to russian propaganda. Nope. There is no such a thing at all and never was. (there is also a lot of ppl from Indonesia, Arabian countries and afrika). Next, i got a lot of friends and relatives in the eastern Ukraine (Kharkiv, Mikolaev and even Donetsk). All of them want to live in Ukraine. Friends from Donetsk were occupied by terrorists. There is only russian TV in this town, witch washbrain ppl. It talks about nazis in ukraine who kill russiantalking ppl. Lucky those who have connection to the reality. Any who tried to talk against them (terrorist i mean) are now missing. They can took your house your car and everything they want, and you can nothing to do because they got guns and power. Those friends from Donetsk left the town 2 weeks ago. Now they live in Kiev. They have lost everything.

Cease fire. There were signed document in Minsk about cease fire, so the problem can be solved amicably. Government of Ukraine gave to Donbass region special status witch made them almost the same to autonomous Republic. Separatists didnt gave a single fuck about that. At the second day they tried to assault Mariupol, they even wrote it on their official webpages, but it failed and they accused Ukraine in violation of cease fire witch is ridiculous. Next, as we know, the conflict raised with new power from last days. How the cease fire was violated? Over all period of cease fire there were artillery duels, the most tense situation were in Donetsk airport. In 2 last weeks before our days the separatists started the assault of airport, in last 2 days the soldiers in airport were under siege in critical situation - airport was almost taken, a lot of wounded solders were in there and they needed a hospitality. The government of Ukraine made a decision to make the "road of life" to the airport and save solders in it from total annihilation. Solders were saved, terrorists throw back. But, the provocation was successful, and now terrorist goes for counter-attack. Cease fire is totally broken. Now they trying to attack the city of Mariupol. Artillery strikes the city. 20 citizens were killed just yesterday. Russian send more tanks and soldiers to zone of conflict. Putin know that economic of Ukraine is weak, and war just devastate it, he knows that everyone is fear of ww3, so no1 will help the Ukraine. Thats why he can send his army to Ukraine and just say "hey, it's not mine, look, they dont even have russian federation flag". About the motives think by yourself. It's not makes any difference anyway.

Nope, not touching this with a ten foot pole.

Maybe I can consider touching this in a different way. How about we talk about what is happening? Like battles erupting the technical aspect of combat and how the front shifts or not without getting all political up in here?

(Political wise, all sides are dead in the wrong but are also right in some instances in my mind. Plus everyone lies like all the fucking time.)

Fuck it three posts in a row!

Just realized this is a thread by BartonPL. Well done you trolling bastard!

Barton pro russia...lol

How about we talk about what is happening? Like battles erupting the technical aspect of combat and how the front shifts or not without getting all political up in here?

We can create a special thread where ME for example will upload some maps and videos from that war with some kind of chronography and explanation. About almost victory of UF and the greatest catastrophe of it - Illovaysk Pocket (with videos with solders who are trying to break threw (but only on Russian/Ukrainian videos only on Russian/Ukrainian language)

For example:

This is one of many video about Illovayk pocket. The Ukrainian commander "Dnipro-1" Yuri Bereza trying to break threw from the pocket on BTR (there is a colon of vehicles, not just 1 BTR). Few made it. As you can see, the solders are talking both on Ukrainian and Russian language witch once more says: russian/ukraininan language problem is just a russian propaganda
he Ukrainian commander "Dnipro-1" Yuri Bereza trying to break threw from the pocket

This is video made by video-registrator of the car in Mariupol (yesterday) - the citizens couch by artillery of separatists. It's a miracle the driver has survived
the citizens couch by artillery of separatists

This is video from UAV of Ukrainian volunteers. It shows the Donetsk Airport after months of battle. Video were made 10 days ago. This airport were held over 200 days. The solders who defended it were called "cyborgs" by the separatists (after it was highly forced by Ukrainian propaganda). Days and night they were under artillery barrage from all calibres separatists got. Snipers with high calibre guns were all around. It was assaulted countless times with assault infantry and tanks. It was the most hot place during "cease fire". Separatist assaulted it even in that time. The last two weeks it was under attack 24/7. Separatists used smoke grenades, russian marines take a part in assault (there is a video with solder who had russian marines riband on the shoulder, but we cant say it was actually russian marine for 100%). New terminal was totally blew up, witch made a lot of UA solders under the rubble. Also, a lot of solders were wounded, they needed ammo, water and food as well. They were under siege. Desperate, UA government made a decision to make "road of life" to save those solders from total annihilation. Terrorists were threw back, but provocation has worked and now terrorists went for counter attack and there is no more "cease fire".

video from UAV of Ukrainian volunteers

Here is a reportage of UA media about desperate assault to make "road of life" and save defenders of airport. The situation is critical. "Shoot from everything can shoot, there is no time even to hide, the main task - save solders before it's too late". Epic tank battle were over there with near 40 tanks total. The terrorists were threw back... but not for long. 2 divisions of russia were sent immediately from the border were 40k russian solders dislocated at the moment

desperate assault to make "road of life"

Im citizen of Ukraine, im study in Lviv university (not my native town though) and im offended by this thread. I dont care about history, but let's talk about those days.


>new government mostly (around 50%) consisting of UPA/banderovites

The only political party of the Ukraine who you can call "banderovietes/UPA" is "svoboda" and "Praviy sektor" . Actually they have no any power. There is only 7 deputies from "Svoboda" in verhovna rada and only 1 men from "Praviy sektor". Dmitro Yarosh, leader of the "Praviy sektor" had only 1% on the president election. The actual government (Porosheno, Yazenuk, Turchinov) havent any involvement to any national organization (and never had).

>on of their first changed in constitution was about russian language

Thats not true. This law was proposed and passed (about russian language) only in 2012. It wasnt a constitution change though. It was silly and not well thought out but it have passed. After revolution there were a propose to cancel this law from one of the deputies. It wasnt cancelled. Yea, dude, you can even read it in wikipedia (or official ukrainian website) - this law wasnt cancelled and still works.

In 23 years there were never any harassment of any nationality or language in Ukraine. Any harassment is punished by law.

>it was not allowed in Ukraine borders

Just no comments, you got to be really silly (not trying to offend you) if you really believed in that shit.

>Crime organization took power in Ukraine

Ok, tell me how this organization called, what people in it, and what crimes it did. Because i live in Ukraine and dont know such a one.

>they changed constitution that strikes at russian population mostly

As i said, they didnt.

Now let's talk about the situation at donbass and Ukraine
All leaders of those "republics" is russians. They got nationality of russia, they are citizens of russia they lived in russia. Easy to check if you dont believe me. Not all russiantalking people is russians however. There were no any constitution changes to harass russiantalking people and there were not such a harassment at all. Over half a million (almost 800k by non-official data) ppl of Donbass are refugees. Most of the students were disturbed over western/central Ukraine universities (60 were settled in my hostel just half a year ago). You think there is any harassment over them? Lviv is fascists capital in Ukraine if believe to russian propaganda. Nope. There is no such a thing at all and never was. (there is also a lot of ppl from Indonesia, Arabian countries and afrika). Next, i got a lot of friends and relatives in the eastern Ukraine (Kharkiv, Mikolaev and even Donetsk). All of them want to live in Ukraine. Friends from Donetsk were occupied by terrorists. There is only russian TV in this town, witch washbrain ppl. It talks about nazis in ukraine who kill russiantalking ppl. Lucky those who have connection to the reality. Any who tried to talk against them (terrorist i mean) are now missing. They can took your house your car and everything they want, and you can nothing to do because they got guns and power. Those friends from Donetsk left the town 2 weeks ago. Now they live in Kiev. They have lost everything.

Cease fire. There were signed document in Minsk about cease fire, so the problem can be solved amicably. Government of Ukraine gave to Donbass region special status witch made them almost the same to autonomous Republic. Separatists didnt gave a single fuck about that. At the second day they tried to assault Mariupol, they even wrote it on their official webpages, but it failed and they accused Ukraine in violation of cease fire witch is ridiculous. Next, as we know, the conflict raised with new power from last days. How the cease fire was violated? Over all period of cease fire there were artillery duels, the most tense situation were in Donetsk airport. In 2 last weeks before our days the separatists started the assault of airport, in last 2 days the soldiers in airport were under siege in critical situation - airport was almost taken, a lot of wounded solders were in there and they needed a hospitality. The government of Ukraine made a decision to make the "road of life" to the airport and save solders in it from total annihilation. Solders were saved, terrorists throw back. But, the provocation was successful, and now terrorist goes for counter-attack. Cease fire is totally broken. Now they trying to attack the city of Mariupol. Artillery strikes the city. 20 citizens were killed just yesterday. Russian send more tanks and soldiers to zone of conflict. Putin know that economic of Ukraine is weak, and war just devastate it, he knows that everyone is fear of ww3, so no1 will help the Ukraine. Thats why he can send his army to Ukraine and just say "hey, it's not mine, look, they dont even have russian federation flag". About the motives think by yourself. It's not makes any difference anyway.

Banderovites are not in governemnt? That's strange cuz the date of creation UPA is now your national day, your government wants to "retake" polish eastern territories claiming them to be theirs and they ask for forgivness for what they did before to poles (google - Massacre in Volhynia and eastern Galicia for example), at least nazis were so good to put a bullet in your head or in worse case gas you to death while UPA/banderovites methods were more brutal (actually they invented 136 methods to kill or so)


I believe your friends from Donbas are pure ukrainians right? so it's pretty obvious they want to stay in Ukraine.


About this ceasefire... story repeats like it was with japan vs USA, cold war etc, why? cuz Westerns wants something and give nothing back, in Minsk what they decided? Russia retreats from ukraine, leaves separatists alone and let them slaughter right? (idea to create demilitarized zone was fake)