Suggestion: Rework defensive veterancy for infantry

Hi all,

As we all know, infantry get received accuracy modifiers upon getting vet which makes them harder to kill. Ofc some kind of defensive buff is required to counter the offensive vet buff, but it's side effect is to make blobs, especially high vet blobs very hard to kill. So I've thought of a possible solution:

Split defensive veterancy so that some is given right away and rest as follows: it grants a passive buff which gives less received accuracy, but only in while in cover, regardless of green/yellow. (Other cover bonuses remain so green is still better ofc, I am only speaking of the vet based received accuracy buff)

Pros:

1. should be easy to implement, Sherman already has a vet-enabled buff, ostruppen had (have?) cover bonuses and Panther command tank aura improvement with vet shows that the underlying code base can support such a mechanic as well as extend it to 5 vet levels (okw consideration)

2. Promotes better use of cover and allows infantry (on both sides) to better oppose lmg blobs as the blobs won't have their super defensive bonuses without proper positioning (looking at you obers/volks/paras) since the whole idea behind blobbing is to exchange positioning for mass.

3. The proportion can be adjusted to that close range units can get more of their defensive bonus as a flat bonus so they shouldn't suffer e.g. shocks, pgrens. Will also allow to fine tune units roles better.

4. IIRC this shouldn't affect vehicle vs infantry play as they're mostly based on scatter, not accuracy, correct?

5. Edit: just occurred to me; the same can be done for offensive infantry vet.

Please tell me what you think. Let's get the idea train rolling.

I support this idea. I love the early game tactical play which revolves around cover but when the blobs start to roll out the game gets less enjoyable for me. Anything that promotes the cover-fighting is excellent in my book.

What you say makes sense, and it encourages players to use cover and positioning. But we still need suppression tweaks for crowd control.

But the thing is I won't think they change the vet/cover system at this point.

I can understand buffs like accuracy, throwing further grenades and something like that but recived accuracy?What the hell is that?! Are they watching Matrix or what? It should be counted only behind cover or inside buildings. Right now vetted volks or obers have better survability than shocks or at least similar but okw blob running through open Space, few squads shooting at them and amazing feature "none bullet can touch me" is really idiotic.

I can understand buffs like accuracy, throwing further grenades and something like that but recived accuracy?What the hell is that?! Are they watching Matrix or what? It should be counted only behind cover or inside buildings. Right now vetted volks or obers have better survability than shocks or at least similar but okw blob running through open Space, few squads shooting at them and amazing feature "none bullet can touch me" is really idiotic.

Yes that is exactly why I proposed this. My proposed change is so that at higher vet, e.g. vet 3 for grens, they get a received accuracy buff but only during cover (Or maybe they could split it)

What you say makes sense, and it encourages players to use cover and positioning. But we still need suppression tweaks for crowd control.

But the thing is I won't think they change the vet/cover system at this point.

We can always hope. More to the point, I think this is a better way than simply nerfing lmgs, cause that opens another can of worms (smg vs lmg balance) and also accounts for the insane recieved accuracy buff that some infantry get at higher vet

received accuracy is units becoming better at not being hit, ie using available cover. increased accuracy is the units getting better at aiming. there isn't anything inherently wrong with the concept.

For offensive vet bonus, my vote is no.
For defensive vet bonus, it may be 0.5 * def vet bonus while the unit is moving (or another modifier number). It may be 1 * def vet bonus while in cover.

So, 0,5 means that veteran units move more safely on the battlefield than non-vet units (which is sense in real).

1 means that veteran units excel at not being hit in the cover (which is sense in real).

Vet Paratroopers with 3x 3% harder to hit bulletins at 6 men,lmgs and 28 reinforce= cheatmode activated.

For offensive vet bonus, my vote is no.
For defensive vet bonus, it may be 0.5 * def vet bonus while the unit is moving (or another modifier number). It may be 1 * def vet bonus while in cover.

So, 0,5 means that veteran units move more safely on the battlefield than non-vet units (which is sense in real).

1 means that veteran units excel at not being hit in the cover (which is sense in real).

Yes that's exactly what I meant. The exact proportion can be tweaked as well this way so short range units don't unduly suffer

received accuracy is units becoming better at not being hit, ie using available cover. increased accuracy is the units getting better at aiming. there isn't anything inherently wrong with the concept.

Nothing wrong at all with accuracy bonuses, as that reflects reality well. It's more the defensive vet that should be tweaked. More experienced infantry using cover better to not get hit? Great. Magically becoming harder to hit? Not so great.

+1 from me

Sounds good, I can't see Relic actually implementing it but they really should.

Great idea! This change is actually fairly simple to implement without extra coding. Just changes in the data files.

The only problem is this modifier will not be directional. Like Osttruppen accuracy modifier, it doesn't matter if you flanked them or not - if they are touching cover at any side, they will get the bonus.

But even so, at least we would not be worse off than now - and the primary intended effect of reducing advancing blob toughness would be achieved anyway.

I'm going to download the mod tools, see if I can create a mod to test it. I invite everyone who's interested to try

What if they made it so the defensive bonuses were only applied while in cover? Late game this would still be rather redundant as there is yellow cover everywhere. IMO craters need to be reworked to be a little more varied, with only the larger ones providing cover.

What if they made it so the defensive bonuses were only applied while in cover? Late game this would still be rather redundant as there is yellow cover everywhere. IMO craters need to be reworked to be a little more varied, with only the larger ones providing cover.

Agreed, will look into that too (with mod tools). Apart from that, maybe make it so that green cover has a much more beneficial effect? 3 of the factions can build cost-free green cover at will, so its destruction won't have that much of an impact. Perhaps add sandbags to grens?

Excellent idea.

Sounds good, I can't see Relic actually implementing it but they really should.

That's basically the story in a nutshell of every single suggestion on this forum...

Good idea, support it, but doubt it'll ever happen, because Relic.

Well, if nothing else, I'll try to do this one then send it to cruzz, maybe he can (will?) incorporate it into kappatch. Hey, if relic won't do it now, we'll make do till the patches roll out (not flaming on relic, just mean that we have the tools to do a fix up for now, and that's better than nothing)