Conscripts Weapon Upgrade Paths

Should the Russian Conscripts have the ability to upgrade there weapons to a PPsH-41 Sub machine Guns or something else, that is not a commander based ability. To increase there firepower going into the mid to late game, since there are such a backbone Russian infantry unit.

With a lot of the Conscripts ability's locked away into the Guards Rifle Anti-Tank Tactics in 1v1 game it can be a very hard choice to not go for that commander.

Yes. Make them more expensive if necessary, but PPsH should be non-doctrinal. Less choices is rarely better.

The PPsH is too powerful for non-doctrinal. All conscripts can upgrade cheap molotovs and AT grenades and conscripts scale well with vet. If they all had PPsH shock troops would be much less appealing. Then there is always that infantry war machine ability which would lead to conscript zerg rushes.

Right now everything does a lot less damage than its CoH1 counterpart. Watching engagements with Gren/Scripts just makes my eyes hurt. Yeah they are kinda balanced against eachother because they both suck equally hard, but against other units its pretty obvious they lack any real stopping power.

-rifles (except for the expensive and usually replaced Penals) take way too long to kill MG crewman without using some other upgrade
-they lack the damage output to effectively focus fire, and thats a pretty big deal for flamers since they also have bigger squad sizes on top of that
-Scripts/Grens don't really do that much damage early game but the only reason they get vet is because of the weird vet system that rewards dying. Once they change that death=vet fuckshit, they will be even worse.
-Russians relying on expensive Shocks as the main infantry will lack infantry AT



Now it feels like the best way to have solid infantry units mid-late game is by getting something better, rather than the vcoh model of scaling your core units and supplementing them with a small amount of expensive but more specialized squads. Elite units seem to run the show unless the hit the dirt+ppsh doctrine is picked, and even with that doctrine scripts are still pretty unimpressive before you have 2 CP. Scripts/Grens both need better rifles so that focus firing actually has results, and then the MP44/PPSH/SVT need to be buffed proportionally so that they are still superior.

I do agree, but only because I miss my 4 rifle BAR play so much. It feels like at the moment conscript flanking is never rewarded to the extent of a flank rewards in CoH1. Molotovs are not good and don't do the damage you require, especially in the early game to do some real fast damage. The only unit capable of flanking and doing damage in the early game is the flame engineers.

Grens and mgs hold ground very easily against conscript flanking based play, which I find makes Russia going for some t1 sniper/elite infantry or mortar based play easier and more rewarding in the early game generally. Don't get me wrong, I find the 4 conscripts t2/t3 build with PPSH works but it lacks early game punch without a flamer. Been saying it since the start of Alpha and Beta, conscirpt/gren small arms fire needs a buff. Supported flamers run rampant because in the mid-game and counter everything except vechiles.

The PPsH is too powerful for non-doctrinal. All conscripts can upgrade cheap molotovs and AT grenades and conscripts scale well with vet. If they all had PPsH shock troops would be much less appealing. Then there is always that infantry war machine ability which would lead to conscript zerg rushes.

Conscripts' veterancy:

• Vet 1: ability unlock
  
• Vet 2: Armor: 1.25
  
• Vet 3: Armor 1.8

Grenadiers' veterancy

• Vet 1: ability unlock
  
• Vet 2: Armor: 2.25
  
• Vet 3: Weapon damage: 1.78

I can't say conscripts scale very well with vet. A vet 3 grenadier squad with an LMG will just destroy a vet 3 conscript squad. Besides, molotovs are really easy to dodge right now, since you can't target a squad with them and have to target the ground instead.
The two PPSHs this doctrine gives to your conscripts aren't all that much of a buff, but I can't imagine myself playing without them. Conscripts are almost completely useless in the late game without them at the moment, so you practically always have to choose Guards Rifle Anti-Tank Tactics.

If you're using a Conscript heavy build order, then of course this Commander selection makes sense. The problem is that strategies involving Soviet Tier 1 and/or other Commander-specific infantry aren't all that viable. So the solution is to balance the game to make them more viable, thus creating more Commander options for the Soviet player. Easier said than done, I know.

pfff they havnt given the commander teching and upgrading trees enough thought , anyway some buffing of rifles in general , nerfinng of smgs , and a fix of the molotov to work like the pe incendiary nade , could ammend this , alternatively , they could make ppsh's upgredable from hq but only allow you to upgrade at a squad after it obtains vet 1 in this way the hug the dirt doctrine would still give you a teching advantage if you elect to go for it along with HTD .

Alternatively they could fix the mp/pop costs for each unit , i mean penal battalion has the same pop and cost as the pgrens which is ridiculous and maxim gun has the same as the osheer mg for having more crewmen and whats the outcome ? it gets killed by gren blobs the thing it supposed to counter MVGame . Imo we d see a lot more viable t1/t2 strats if combat engies had 4 pop , cons 5 , maxim mg 4 , soviet mortar 5 , and penal battalion was costed 300 or 360 but with the flamer already upgraded and had 6 pop .

Yes improved options to help flank more effectively would be great and they do need to sort out the veterancy bonuses. I'm pretty much going Guards Rifle Anti-Tank Tactics in most 1v1's to help fight off Ostheer infantry

Conscripts & Grenadiers do seem to need a buff to there normal weapons to make them more effective and still keep them proportional in respect to the upgrades.

The PPsH-41 doesn't seem too powerful for non commander infantry, the Ostheer get a MG42 LMG upgrade for there Grenadiers and tons of the Soviet upgrades are locked away into commanders.

The PPS-42/43 could be a good contender for an upgrade choice. This could then leave the PPsH-41 in the commander trees if they don't want to move it out.

Bolt action Rifle DPS is IMO one of the biggest reasons we are seeing so many cheesy m3 halftrack builds, If you give the Russian player the ability to play aggresively with his conscripts early there will be alot more early game skirmishing and flanking. All the games on SNF had the early halftrack play as you don't really have any other option.

I also think flames all round need a nerf, because at the moment it's by far and away the most effective killing weapon...

I would also like to see another rifle introduced into the game, perhaps an SVT-40 as an upgrade much like bars to increase the coscripts rate of fire.

TBH going for rifle antitank for the ppsh is a very risky choice in 1v1, cause if your opponent makes it to the late game , your fucked , right now the game just laughs at you if you dont go for IS 2/ ISU or tigers , ihave literally had no defeats with IS2 doctrine so far , and with the germans when i tried to play with the festung support armor , i got destroyed after some gruelling 1hr matches when my opponent somehow made a comeback with the IS2 , that was it the fucking thing does not die even to railgun arty and it takes normal tanks ages to destroy it firing from the side even whe it has a sliver of health and all kinds of crits , same thing with guards motors coordination , doesnt matter if you trap and ram the tiger , it takes so much time to destroy it that your opponent will come to rescue it , ffs .

I also think flames all round need a nerf, because at the moment it's by far and away the most effective killing weapon...

Since the nerf they are pretty comparable to CoH flamers, the reason they dominate so hard is because Grens and Scripts can't kill them. Once (if) their rifles are buffed, it will be much better I think.

I find molotovs extremely useful for how much they cost. Even if the squad dodges them, you will be denying them cover in which case your conscripts will usually win the fight in cover vs no cover.

I think mainly you need to remember that conscripts are by far the least expensive unit in the game per man. I do not like the idea of giving them all SMGs at all. Wanting them to play like rifles in vCoH is the wrong idea.

Yes Grens get an LMG upgrade, that they have to stand still to use. Conscripts get molotovs which makes them move. There are dynamics of the game in play that people don't fully understand yet.

Personally I find that flanking with molotovs and oorah actually feels easier than pulling off a vcoh nade flank, because molotovs are not just one time damage but area denial, and oorah makes it really easy to get to where you need to be. Not to mention that you're paying 20mp instead of 27 to reinforce.

I would like to see more options for Conscript upgrades, but I don't really want a rifle DPS increase -- at least not in the early game -- I rather enjoy the pace of the current conscript vs gren battles.

Instead, do one of the following: make flamers get a rec. acc increase, make them move slower, or best choice of all, make them ineffective vs open or negative cover.

I find molotovs extremely useful for how much they cost. Even if the squad dodges them, you will be denying them cover in which case your conscripts will usually win the fight in cover vs no cover.

I think mainly you need to remember that conscripts are by far the least expensive unit in the game per man. I do not like the idea of giving them all SMGs at all. Wanting them to play like rifles in vCoH is the wrong idea.

Yes Grens get an LMG upgrade, that they have to stand still to use. Conscripts get molotovs which makes them move. There are dynamics of the game in play that people don't fully understand yet.

1 Conscripts cost 6 pop and 240 mp and they loose to unupgraded grens early on without using molotov so in total they are not that much cheaper or numerous , late in the game both those units are at/nade,faust platforms and capping machines

2 so you are telling me that if your opponent throws a molotov at you , you either stand on the fire or you dance around the map ? , how about simply relocating elsewhere and then stand still there ? Molotovs are to give an edge when grens are unupgraded (cause when they are they ll still schred your guys ) and to dislodge machine guns and garissoned squads

A conscript will not always lose to a gren. Even vs LMGs conscripts can oorah into cover, deny the grens cover, and shoot them while they are repositioning. Meanwhile you are buying time for your numerous other conscript squads to speed boost into position and finish off squads, flank mgs, etc.

Its about how you play it. If your conscripts are always losing to grens, you are probably doing something wrong.

A conscript will not always lose to a gren. Even vs LMGs conscripts can oorah into cover, deny the grens cover, and shoot them while they are repositioning. Meanwhile you are buying time for your numerous other conscript squads to speed boost into position and finish off squads, flank mgs, etc.

Its about how you play it. If your conscripts are always losing to grens, you are probably doing something wrong.

yeah your example , includes that there is only one place for your opponent to take cover or that there is one at all , your opponent being dumb enough to not understand that your running in order to throw a molotov and not circle around your cover from a considerable range while he doesnt fire at your cons with his mg , and then when your numerous cons arive he has only 2 squads ,even though cons grens and mgs cost 240 and you ve already spent both time and resources upgrading for molotovs and perhaps at nades cause of flamer halftrack , and then he does not know how to position his mg at all , does not fire at different squads not taking advantage of his superfast suppression and does not know what focus firing is and has never used a riflenade which is actually sort of good for taking squadmembers to half health enabling your units to dispatch them quickly . Great opponent MVGame ,

Oh and speed boost , i assume you r talking about ouraah , costs muinitions ,if your not carefull in the early game you might not have enough for other abilities or upgrades

FYI i have yet to loose a single 1v1 game with SRF tactics (i know that its the cheasiest doctrine but still atm its the best way to counter the late game tank-madness )

Since the nerf they are pretty comparable to CoH flamers, the reason they dominate so hard is because Grens and Scripts can't kill them. Once (if) their rifles are buffed, it will be much better I think.

Yeah that may help deal with engi flamers but what about halftrack flames, a big reason they are so deadly at the moment is the damage on retreat plus the high movment speed of the vehicle making it often impossible to escape from if your caught out of position even if you retreat at full health. Damage on retreat should be cut down to around 20-30% for flames IMO

Yeah that may help deal with engi flamers but what about halftrack flames, a big reason they are so deadly at the moment is the damage on retreat plus the high movment speed of the vehicle making it often impossible to escape from if your caught out of position even if you retreat at full health. Damage on retreat should be cut down to around 20-30% for flames IMO

Try laying an early mine in your retreat path. Or throw an AT nade at the HT before you retreat to damage its engine so it can't chase you. If your totally unprepared for it, it's not much different than a fast puma or m8 chasing you back to your base in vcoh.

Try laying an early mine in your retreat path. Or throw an AT nade at the HT before you retreat to damage its engine so it can't chase you. If your totally unprepared for it, it's not much different than a fast puma or m8 chasing you back to your base in vcoh.

The difference between the two examples in Vcoh you mention is that tech was required for those 2 vehicles. The halftrack being in T2 can just be picked up along the way with out having to spend manpower and time in a higher tech... It's almost impossible to get a good counter up before it hits which makes the problem worse as he can be super agressive for a minute or two catching capping units with their pants around their ankles. It kind of reminds me of the PE AC which I used to hate personally.