Howitzer Tank Overperforming

Each man to his own, I guess

I preface this reply, by stating clearly that I am not a Strategist

I have never seen anything approaching the Ostwind for USF, apart from the AA-Halftrack.

I honestly find it difficult to compare the Scott to the old ISU. IMO, the Scott is a highly effective unit, used correctly, too often ignored by USF players (at a lower level).

I don't mean that every faction should have an Ostwind. I just wish more tanks did damage in the same manner as the Ostwind - consistently high, but never 1 shotting squads. Right now KT, Tiger, Brummbar, Sherman, M8, Is-2, etc do damage that is too unpredictable. Sometimes the M8 is going to 1 shot your vet 3 squad, sometimes it is going to miss entirely. I think it'd be better for both parties if these types of tanks would consistently kill models, thus inflicting bleed, without randomly 1 shotting squads.

Part of this is the new cover behavior (please give us a "loose formation" button... AoE 2 had this like 16 years ago, shouldn't be difficult to program) but part of it is the way AoE profiles currently work - they need a major overhaul.

M8 Scott has been OP for a long time. I think the only unit that squad wiped more than this was the old ISU... maybe the 120mm mortar.

Because King Tiger is not wiping everything

Huge AoE, nice scatter, amazing armor, reload time a way better than ISU, and turret.

scott spam is pretty annoying. destroy my guys as soon as they approach

scott spam is pretty annoying. destroy my guys as soon as they approach

Apologies.

I should have clarified: I was talking 1v1

Because King Tiger is not wiping everything

Huge AoE, nice scatter, amazing armor, reload time a way better than ISU, and turret.

Are we really comparing an 80 fuel tank to a 260 fuel tank that requires EVERY truck to be built in order to build?

Might as well compare the Stug E to the Is-2 while we're at it...

Of course the KT is a better tank than a Scott on an individual basis - it costs like 5 times as much. But 4-5 Scotts is going to bleed a hell of a lot more than a single KT. Not that I'd ever have 5 scotts on the field at the same time... but the thought experiment sticks.

The Scott is just too strong for its current cost. Plus the ability it has to shoot over every shot blocker makes it crazy hard to deal with on some maps. It's a cool feature, don't get me wrong... but it is too brutal on maps like Semos/Vaux. Maybe there's a way to reduce accuracy when it is lobbing shots over buildings and stuff?

Replace Scott with Obersoldaten

Unfortunately, one OP unit can only reliably be killed by another OP unit.

Good game design? no.
Fun to play as/against? no.
More balanced than it would be otherwise? unfortunately, yes.

[...]Not that I'd ever have 5 scotts on the field at the same time...[...].

CaptainSPrice has once built more than 5 scotts in 2v2. Whenever he was popcapped he ordered his vehicle crews to leave their tanks in order to lower his actual population limit to produce more scotts. He was oneshooting squads all too often.

Make the scott fire blanks for all i care but buff riflemen lategame veterancy and american late game AT like the Jackson while you're at it!

Scott is a silly silly one shot whipping monster on the cheap. Like a T70 on Roids from outerspace. It is indeed the Allied Version of Vet 5 Obers.

One of about 3 USF units that are out of whack on the power side rather then the Mortar Halftrack side of the coin which is much larger I am afraid...

I would like to see its AOE profile changed because mess with its ROF and it will still whipe crap every shot. Mess with both and no one would build it over a Sherman except in niche cases because its really just Mediocre as a dedicated Indirect fire unit. I mean have every tried to actually bombard a truck to death with one of these? 120MM does it better...

M8A1 for now it good way for use Counter OKW Blob in this time
and OST Gren got this effect too
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edit i see replay 2 ober wipe out when they standing too close when near cover and got wipe easy

if nerf M8A1 it mean Relic nerf okw blob effect too
If nerf only m8a1 it mean USF no unit for counter blob now like USF player playing with you say

Are we really comparing an 80 fuel tank to a 260 fuel tank that requires EVERY truck to be built in order to build?

Might as well compare the Stug E to the Is-2 while we're at it...

Of course the KT is a better tank than a Scott on an individual basis - it costs like 5 times as much. But 4-5 Scotts is going to bleed a hell of a lot more than a single KT. Not that I'd ever have 5 scotts on the field at the same time... but the thought experiment sticks.

The Scott is just too strong for its current cost. Plus the ability it has to shoot over every shot blocker makes it crazy hard to deal with on some maps. It's a cool feature, don't get me wrong... but it is too brutal on maps like Semos/Vaux. Maybe there's a way to reduce accuracy when it is lobbing shots over buildings and stuff?

You yoursefl mentioned ISU (but not KT, I just wonder why).

Of course KT is a way more expensive, that's why it wipes everything, has nice reload duration, armor, turret, penetration... Everything. One-unit army.
You need 120 fuel to unlock KT but how many fuel you need to unlock M8? 140 or... 170! and 13 pop cap....

I think I would hesitate between M8 and Stuka if I could choose.

I was watching yesterday stream of Romeo. He made M8 and was missing all the time ^^

Ur anger pleases me

the Scott Is as op as the units its used to kill

Scott one shot my Pio squad, OMFG PIO SO OP N3RF.

Ur anger pleases me

the Scott Is as op as the units its used to kill

Well Ciez disagrees and he has more qualification than me, or especially you, to discuss balance. And its hilarious you mention anger because you are the kid getting super worked up in balance discussions every day, all I did was point out how clueless you are.

Well Ciez disagrees and he has more qualification than me, or especially you, to discuss balance. And its hilarious you mention anger because you are the kid getting super worked up in balance discussions every day, all I did was point out how clueless you are.

so you call me an idiot

and instead of making ur own argument, u let someone else do it for you? I did not ONCE call u any names. and simply because u disagree with me over a fucking VIDEO GAME. you decide that its perfectly fine to personally attack me?

get a life and grow some balls, honestly.

Well Ciez disagrees and he has more qualification than me, or especially you, to discuss balance. And its hilarious you mention anger because you are the kid getting super worked up in balance discussions every day, all I did was point out how clueless you are.

let me translate this:

"Ciez is a pro player. Cies disagrees so the Ubersoldaten are not op because Ciez is a pro and the opinion of a pro is right and if 1000 people say something other they are idiots and have no rights to discuss balance because they are not pros."

Let me help - it's New Year. so ultra soft moderation for today only

QueenR and Basilone: please sing along together on this, in unison, and then the magic invis fairy will not need to flutter her wings (you have awoken the creature from hibernation, with your rising tempers)



Deal?

Ciez probably has the strongest credentials to talk about balance out of everyone who has posted in this thread so far. This is undeniable, statistically proven fact.

That being said, I do disagree with him concerning Obersoldaten. I feel their raw DPS is too strong once fully veteran, not to mention they become mobile 360 quickscoping MGs. However you are absolutely right about the Scott being pretty OP. But like I said before in this thread, I think this is a result of the squad bunching/poor unit pathing, and affects all AOE weapons. Though the Scott greatly benefits from this AOE meta because of it's fast rate of fire.

With that in mind I think people should be a little more respectful to each other, particularly to those who clearly have a better idea of what the subject of discussion is than you.

Obers come out of the box pretty good, though still trading blows with Airborn and often bar'd rifles. It takes what, 10 minutes or more to vet them up? Out pops a Scott, POP, Ober is gone. Slim possibility of retreat, no possibility of out microing or out playing, its just a lost squad usually often on retreat as well. AT gun? Nope, Scott can decrew them often in 1-2 shots and easily over shot blockers etc. At this time OKW maybe has a Luchs which gets owned by the Scott as well, now the only thing you can do is pray with shreks which is a lost cause since the Scott will continue to just wipe squads. Inevitably unless you were already far ahead you'll now just bleed out til you lose. With OKW's lack of a main battle tank and their horrid fuel income a Panther is a pretty far prayer and the sole purpose of building it is JUST to counter the Scott which is probably hidden behind plenty of support and shot blockers.

As Ciez said, its also extremely difficult to deal with on certain maps where you can put it in certain difficult to reach spots and it can fire on your entire position without being able to fire back and basically impossible to try and flank.