Axis heavy armor needs nerf or Allied AT needs buffs

How come? Apart from the good old Bazooka / PTRS / Panzerschreck story this is more like a popular myth. Anti-Tank guns are all similar in Penetration (US one with ability). Between equivalent tanks there is not a huge difference either. Like, P4 is slightly higher than T34/76 and Sherman on medium and long range but slightly lower than T34/85 and somewhat lower than Easy Eight Sherman.

Tiger is slightly lower than IS-2, Panther is a bit higher than IS-2, IS-2 is slightly higher than Tiger.

Jackson is slightly lower than Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanzer IV is slightly lower than SU-85.

All in all I don't see those huge differences and if you ask me it is easier for Allies to penetrate the Panther from the front than for Axis to penetrate the IS-2. But you know what, this is fine to me, I just cannot follow the argument of the OP.

I am in favour of your side armor suggestion by the way, I think this would make the game make more sense. Panther had historically excellent armor in the front, but on the side it was quite vulnerable.

Units with penetration 200 or higher:

OST: Panther (260), Tiger (220), Elephant (440), Pak40 (210), Pak43 (380).
OKW: Jadgpanzer (200), Panther (260), Jadgtiger (550), King Tiger (240), Raketen (200) and of course Pak43.
SU: SU85 (200), KV2 (200), IS2 (250), ZiS (200), ISU (was 260, now I'm not sure what is the value of AP shells right now).
For now it seems balanced. Both sides have units with nice penetration and huge armor, although there are issues like Jadgpanzer - SU85. I would pay more for SU85 to make it almost as useful as Jadgpaner. Of course Jadgtiger and Elephant deny any non-turret armor but that's different subject.

Now USF: Jackons (200). The end.

Simple question. How USF should engage Axis units if the best USF unit has 200 penetration?And what's more, Jackson has to be used at distance where it has.... 160 penetration.
Someone would say that USF units are designed to flank. Except Jadgtiger, Ele and KT (what's speed of KT with blitz?) Axis tanks are FASTER than Jackson. 2 volks squads near Jadgtiger and Jackson is dead. On the other hand Axis can flank IS, ISU with Panther and give a garden about PTRS and Zooks.

It's stupid when someone design faction to flank or engage at range but at the same time give enemy units with higer range and units that deny flanking.

True but look at penetration numbers.
For Axis is not that hard to penetrate IS2.
For Allies (especially for USF) is really, really hard to do it.
__________

I am looking at the penetration numbers but im also looking at the dps and cost. And yes you are right the panther can penetrate the is2. but you can have 2 su85 or 2 jacksons for every okw panther. and what they lack in quality they make up in quantity

unless you have a pak 43 or panther (with support) the axis face the same issues when it come to dealing with the is2. And to be honest i dont mind that the is2 can ignore most axis AT and you should have decent at to counter the heavies just as well.

double post

I am looking at the penetration numbers but im also looking at the dps and cost. And yes you are right the panther can penetrate the is2. but you can have 2 su85 or 2 jacksons for every okw panther. and what they lack in quality they make up in quantity

unless you have a pak 43 or panther (with support) the axis face the same issues when it come to dealing with the is2. And to be honest i dont mind that the is2 can ignore most axis AT and you should have decent at to counter the heavies just as well.

You should also check target size.
For example Jadgpanzer has smaller size than... M3 or T70

Your Panther support should be blob of vetted Volks.
Panther + Volks can easily handle with 2 SU or 2 Jacksons

SU85 is very easy to flank and Panther is faster than Jackson so...

Units with penetration 200 or higher:

OST: Panther (260), Tiger (220), Elephant (440), Pak40 (210), Pak43 (380).
OKW: Jadgpanzer (200), Panther (260), Jadgtiger (550), King Tiger (240), Raketen (200) and of course Pak43.
SU: SU85 (200), KV2 (200), IS2 (250), ZiS (200), ISU (was 260, now I'm not usre what is the value of AP shells).
For now it seems balanced. Both sides have units with nice penetration and huge armor, although there are issues like Jadgpanzer - SU85. I would pay more for SU85 to make it almost as useful as Jadgpaner. Of course Jadgtiger and Elephant deny any non-turret armor but that's different subject.

Now USF: Jackons (200). The end.

Simple question. How USF should engage Axis units if the best USF unit has 200 penetration?And what's more, Jackson has to be used at distance where it has.... 160 penetration.
Someone would say that USF units are designed to flank. Except Jadgtiger, Ele and KT (what's speed of KT with blitz?) Axis tanks are FASTER than Jackson. 2 volks squads near Jadgtiger and Jackson is dead. On the other hand Axis can flank IS, ISU with Panther and give a garden about PTRS and Zooks.

It's stupid when someone design faction to flank or engage at range but at the same time give enemy units with higer range and units that deny flanking.

First you compare all penetration values at minimum range which for most units and engagements is not very likely. They don't all drop off equally much by range, some weapons drop off more than others. Just something to look out for when comparing.

Americans don't have many things with very high penetration, but then it is an US problem and not an Allied problem anymore. They will have to work harder by flanking, or using strenght in quantity with Jacksons (who do more damage per penetrating shot at least) and Anti-Tank guns with the ability which brings it on a penetration level like the other AT guns

Something to add, Soviets with Mark Vehicle and US with P-47 have two good abilities that will reduce the required amount of penetrating shots from your army further. They lock you into certain doctrines sadly. I assume Ostheer nowadays has something similar with the Stuka AT strafe...

First you compare all penetration values at minimum range which for most units and engagements is not very likely. They don't all drop off equally much by range, some weapons drop off more than others. Just something to look out for when comparing.

At max range Allies lose more than Axis... Just to say that only ISU has 200 at max range (yet Im still not sure about new AP shells) while there are plenty of Axis units with 200 or higer at max distance. And yet Allies have to deal with bigger armor, not Axis.
IS loses 60 pen, while Tiger only 40 so close range stats are "in favour" for Allies.

You should also check target size.
For example Jadgpanzer has smaller size than... M3 or T70

Your Panther support should be blob of vetted Volks.
Panther + Volks can easily handle with 2 SU or 2 Jacksons

SU85 is very easy to flank and Panther is faster than Jackson so...

If panther reaches the jackson or an su85 gets flanked then you fucked up.
also complaining about the su85 being flanked but not the jp4. hypocrite much? both depend on support. and yes i need to support my panther with volks otherwise it will lose against the is2 but then again the soviets can just as easily support his shit with at guns,

At max range Allies lose more than Axis... Just to say that only ISU has 200 at max range (yet Im still not sure about new AP shells) while there are plenty of Axis units with 200 or higer at max distance. And yet Allies have to deal with bigger armor, not Axis.
IS loses 60 pen, while Tiger only 40 so close range stats are "in favour" for Allies.

Yes, I am just saying penetration values of different unit types in general seem to come together more closely on long range. Like Anti Tank Guns will generally drop off less than heavy tank guns. 200 penetration from ZiS-3 vs 260 of a Panther looks slightly more drastic than 180 vs 220 on long range. I didn't want to imply that Axis weapons drop off more.

260 x 1.5 = 390. this is a tank that basicly cost 390 if you were playing as any other faction, as for the tech buildings

40+40+80 = 160 x 1.5 = 240 + 390 = 630

630 fuel for the king tiger if one were to play any other faction from the okw. I don't know about anyone else but i'd rather use the call in for the 34/85 and mark target the fucker. hell you don't even need an 85.

allies have awesome AT. i'd choose the USF AT over a pak-40 any day. sure you got to use the special ammo from time to time, but it isn't that many munition. your RNG must also be off if you don't get good pens often.

people are easy to bait with the king, unless super defensive player you'd have a better time out capping him then worrying about a KT sitting in one area.

honestly maybe if a 4v4 were one would be confortable in rushing a KT, which most people are since 4v4 allies are... sadly incompetent... which i do play both sides, i find more teamwork out of the axis side then the allies side. this is another issue on it's own however.

a 1v1 you must be doing something seriously wrong in order to see a KT pushed out super early. this goes for a 2v2.

A 3v3 is not so much risky but you have to judge on the situation you and your team are in unlike the derpy 4v4

If panther reaches the jackson or an su85 gets flanked then you fucked up.
also complaining about the su85 being flanked but not the jp4. hypocrite much? both depend on support. and yes i need to support my panther with volks otherwise it will lose against the is2 but then again the soviets can just as easily support his shit with at guns,

With what you want to flank Jadgpanzer? Anything fast enough to do this will be annihilated by Schrecks and Jadgpznaer can stand a way longer than SU due to armor.

I might want to add that the Elefant is definitely not okay. It´s super slow and 70 range doesn´t cut it. No anti infantry at all. Not worth the fuel cost.

The Panther was lousy before the front armor buff. Now it´s at a good place. It´s a Panther after all. Outrange it with Su-85s and Jacksons. Don´t expect to defeat it by rushing in T-34/85s frontally. Although that might also work.

Tiger is also at a good spot. Although I think its only saving grace is the anti infantry capabilities. Versus armor it goes down relatively fast.

260 x 1.5 = 390. this is a tank that basicly cost 390 if you were playing as any other faction, as for the tech buildings

40+40+80 = 160 x 1.5 = 240 + 390 = 630

630 fuel for the king tiger if one were to play any other faction from the okw. I don't know about anyone else but i'd rather use the call in for the 34/85 and mark target the fucker. hell you don't even need an 85.

i'd choose the USF AT over a pak-40 any day.

Your math is awesome. Why are you doing all the numbers with x1,5 if its a lot cheaper than usf tier?
You also count it like you dont recive anything for that fuel (all trucks are awesome).
And this thing about 57mm and pak...

Your Panther support should be blob of vetted Volks.
Panther + Volks can easily handle with 2 SU or 2 Jacksons

SU85 is very easy to flank and Panther is faster than Jackson so...

Ahh and your SU85 or Jacksons are not supported by inf?

SU85's are easy to flank yes, but only if you giving your opponent, the possibility to flank you.
easy way to place mines everywhere etc.

hon3ynuts is only person on here talking sense. The axis have better tanks and better antitank than allies true in real life , but the allies a lot more tanks so increase pop cap on axis tanks and decrease pop cap on allies tanks.

The allies should have a ratio of 2 to 1 tanks maybe 3 to 1 in this game.

Blitz being used by tanks to retreat is just nonsense

That would take a while.. imagine KT:



This tiger suffered 255 AT hits in the course of 6 hours including 3 mines
And drove back to safety on its own engine.

Quit with the "historical" evaluations. Really.

Or shouldn't we ask for a mechanic that any time a Tiger is in combat there is a 20% chance per minute of light engine/heavy engine/immobility damage. You see, the Tiger was a piece of sh-t by military equipment standards and no unit ever went into combat with more than 50% of its effective strength. And of those, many would break down or run out of fuel.

Ahh and your SU85 or Jacksons are not supported by inf?

SU85's are easy to flank yes, but only if you giving your opponent, the possibility to flank you.
easy way to place mines everywhere etc.

And Panther should be scared of what? Zooks? Ptrs?

Decent opponent won't strike in spot where mine is obvious.

hon3ynuts is only person on here talking sense. The axis have better tanks and better antitank than allies true in real life , but the allies a lot more tanks so increase pop cap on axis tanks and decrease pop cap on allies tanks.

The allies should have a ratio of 2 to 1 tanks maybe 3 to 1 in this game.

Blitz being used by tanks to retreat is just nonsense

Relic said that they wanted to do 3:1 ratio. 3 Shermans vs 1 Tiger but I don't see this.. And even then, most probably sceranio is 2 Shermans dead, 1 retreating and 1 Tiger close to death.
Allies just lost huge amount MP and F. Axis did not lose anything.
And here we come to bleeding problem where US Forec are bleeding all the time with vehicles while OKW does not...

What's more, Lt, Cpt and Mjr pop cap and upkeep are deadly for USF army.

hon3ynuts is only person on here talking sense. The axis have better tanks and better antitank than allies true in real life , but the allies a lot more tanks so increase pop cap on axis tanks and decrease pop cap on allies tanks.

The allies should have a ratio of 2 to 1 tanks maybe 3 to 1 in this game.

Blitz being used by tanks to retreat is just nonsense

This.

Blitz should not work in reverse.

Kt is fine.

But it doesn't help that I CAn get a kt out by 17 minutes consistently in a 4v4

You should also check target size.
For example Jadgpanzer has smaller size than... M3 or T70

What is funny about that? Jpz4 is designed to ambush and destroy enemy tank, When the pjz4 aim at you, he will be harder to hit than m3 or t70, height is only(!!) 1.85 m, it is wider and longer than m3 and t70, still worth to compensate on that if u can reduce height of a tank that is going to ambush enemy tanks.

I think there is also a popcap issue at play, The Kt at 26 popcap requires a signifigantly higher pop of medium tanks to engage roughly 4 t34-76 or 3 su85s. The panthers popcap is also a little low at 16 imo when the jackson is at 14.

I think both increasing the popcap of the KT signifigantly, the panther by like 2 and increasing the performance or decreasing the popcap of some medium vehicles like the jackson, sherman, t34 could help this issue considering a p4 costs more than sherman/t34 same pop and jackson costs the same as a p4 and has 2 more pop

Units should be evaluated based on their price not on some conversion madness. The unit should perform like it costs 260 fuel or just give okw full resources and make them pay 390 fuel. If their tanks are evaluated on the other factions fuel cost then there was no point in giving them reduced income in the first place.

Furthermore I Think the KT does perform like a 260 fuel tank, its really not that far off an is2 its really just got a much better offense( and blitz instead of secure mode ) but using half your popcap on tanks that may still struggle to kill it seems ridiculous

This.

Blitz should not work in reverse.

+1