Doctrines that hard-counter other doctrines

So today I had my B4 fun spoiled by the now less common Elefant commander in a 2v2 (at least, I have hardly seen the doctrine since the range nerfs). It got me thinking about whether or not it is good design to have some commanders that simply neutralize another commander's showpiece units outright, in this case Stukka dive bomb, which automatically negates any artillery, as long as you can get line of site (in this case apparently it was using artillery flares as well as traditional scouting), it's 180munitions for a guaranteed total destruction of the enemy gun (i.e. 600 mp down the toilet).

A further complication is the fact that for USSR, it's usually necessary to choose a commander at the start or very early in the match to get effective infantry call-ins. In many cases the Ostheer commander has the option of waiting to see what shows up before choosing, unless they have a very specific strategy in mind and are pursuing it aggressively.

In some respects I feel like the CoH1 system offered a bit more flexibility, since if you made a bad doctrine choice in a particular matchup there was usually another side of the doctrine tree to go down that would offer you an alternative. Any thoughts on these or other things, in principle?

Close Air Support as a German doctrine can effectively shut down most strategies. Especially if you get a lucky AT-Strafe to hit on some medium tanks or even a Heavy Tank, or get an extremely lucky Stuka Bombing Strike to land on a cluster of Allied infantry.

Well, CoH2 is designed to use doctrines as hard-counters for enemy's one. This how it is and we have to deal with it. I'm good with such mechanizm YET, like you said, it's very in favour for Axis since Soviets need to pick up doctrine at 2 CP. Ostheer does not have such problem and can easily wait to see what doctrine enemy picked up.
When I see at least 1 doctrine with Stuka in line up, 90% cases Im not risking and Im going for IS2.
Most of the time it's enough for Ost to have doctrine in line up. You don't have to even choose it, since for Soviets it's too big risk to go for B4 is you have it in line up.

Stuka bomb should cost 240 I guess.

Where would you rather see hard counters to static artillery if not hidden in docs?

Where would you rather see hard counters to static artillery if not hidden in docs?

Not in the game?

Not in the game?

Yeah point-and-click-adventures hidden in / near your base would be soooo much fun

Stuka zu fuss when cooling down is usually hidden deep behind the lines and allies dont have one-click ability to kill it. You have to be sneaky with your tanks, go around and somehow try to get it.

When cooling down... so you already noticed it has to come closer to shoot. And it costs 100 OKW fuel, flanking with T34/Shermans should not be that hard, as you won't see any other tank in a while. While other static arty only costs MP and does not delay tanks.

When cooling down... so you already noticed it has to come closer to shoot. And it costs 100 OKW fuel, flanking with T34/Shermans should not be that hard, as you won't see any other tank in a while. While other static arty only costs MP and does not delay tanks.

Cost only MP and means no IS2, no ISU, no KV2/8. And Stuka is not like Katy of werfer. It has 320 hp and is better at killing inf.

Cost only MP and means no IS2, no ISU, no KV2/8. And Stuka is not like Katy of werfer. It has 320 hp and is better at killing inf.

Uh.. have you considered using Tank Hunter Tactics for just that? The whole "Anti-Tank Carpet Bombing" call in ability would synchronize well with a recon or flare. Apply that to a Stuka zu Fuss in the "back lines" and it'll blow up.


Or apply it in the back lines where a tank might go to make repairs.

Uh.. have you considered using Tank Hunter Tactics for just that? The whole "Anti-Tank Carpet Bombing" call in ability would synchronize well with a recon or flare. Apply that to a Stuka zu Fuss in the "back lines" and it'll blow up.


Or apply it in the back lines where a tank might go to make repairs.

Really? Tank huner? So... Cons with PTRS vs Falsch, Obers, Pzfusi... And keep in mind red flares so you can drive back.

And using doctrinal, highest CP ability to counter non-doc unit is really stupid and bad designed.

So its OK for the B4 to be a hard counter, but not for the stuka doctrine.

Really? Tank Hunter? So... Cons with PTRS vs Falsch, Obers, Pzfusi... And keep in mind red flares so you can drive back.

And using doctrinal, highest CP ability to counter non-doc unit is really stupid and bad designed.

Actually there's no reason to be aggressive here.. I was asking a sincere question.


Also I use Close Air Support doctrine often, I find that red flares don't always mean that people will pay attention and respond to them.

I don´t know how to feel about this.

I always have the Elefant doctrine in my Ostheer load-out. Not for the Elefant, but the recon + Stuka combination in case of a B4.

If the Soviet opponent has a B4 in his load-out, I wait with choosing a doctrine until I am sure what doctrine he has taken.

Tbh I feel without the Stuka + recon, the B4 would be devastatingly overpowered. How else can you reach it if it´s built in the base of your opponent. The only other option would be to suicide rush a Panzer IV/ Tiger and hope for the best. - Which isn´t a reliable option.

Just yesterday a B4 annihilated my teammates medic outpost including some squads and several of my weapon crews within <10 minutes. Only the Stuka + recon saved us.

I agree that that might ruin the fun for the player using the B4, but how else is that gun not going to be totally overpowered?

Actually there's no reason to be aggressive here.. I was asking a sincere question.


Also I use Close Air Support doctrine often, I find that red flares don't always mean that people will pay attention and respond to them.

I did not mean to be agressive.

I don´t know how to feel about this.

I always have the Elefant doctrine in my Ostheer load-out. Not for the Elefant, but the recon + Stuka combination in case of a B4.

If the Soviet opponent has a B4 in his load-out, I wait with choosing a doctrine until I am sure what doctrine he has taken.

Tbh I feel without the Stuka + recon, the B4 would be devastatingly overpowered. How else can you reach it if it´s built in the base of your opponent. The only other option would be to suicide rush a Panzer IV/ Tiger and hope for the best. - Which isn´t a reliable option.

Just yesterday a B4 annihilated my teammates medic outpost including some squads and several of my weapon crews within <10 minutes. Only the Stuka + recon saved us.

I agree that that might ruin the fun for the player using the B4, but how else is that gun not going to be totally overpowered?

Ok, but who forced your teammate to make forward medic? It's a high risk - high reward thing.
There are other ways to kill B4, not just stuka.
Stuka zu fuss can do it, fragmentation bomb, sneaky falsch or jaeger, mass attack from flank...

Ok, but who forced your teammate to make forward medic?

Cool logic: Who forces you to go B4?

It's a high risk - high reward thing.
There are other ways to kill B4, not just stuka.
Stuka zu fuss can do it, fragmentation bomb, sneaky falsch or jaeger, mass attack from flank...

The fragmentation bomb doesn´t work if you can´t spot it. Jäger-Infanterie is in one Ostheer doctrine, which not everyone owns. Even if you have them, they can only decrew the weapon. Not efficient enough. There´s no other option but recon + Stuka for Ostheer.

The medic truck was in our part of the map and is a basic building of the OKW afaik.

The B4 itself is overpowered, that´s why I´m forced to block one commander slot with the Elefant doctrine.

Cool logic: Who forces you to go B4?

The fragmentation bomb doesn´t work if you can´t spot it. Jäger-Infanterie is in one Ostheer doctrine, which not everyone owns. Even if you have them, they can only decrew the weapon. Not efficient enough. There´s no other option but recon + Stuka for Ostheer.

The medic truck was in our part of the map and is a basic building of the OKW afaik.

The B4 itself is overpowered, that´s why I´m forced to block one commander slot with the Elefant doctrine.

No one forced my to go for B4 so if I loose it due to Stuka Im not crying. Making forward medic is a risk and if you loose it due to B4 it's your fault. No one focred to make it outside of the base.



Frag bomb doesnt work of you can't spot? Whan was the last time you have played with Ostheer? Cause one of two doctrines with frag bomb has..... YES! Recon!

"King Tiger, Jadgtiger and Elephant are overpowerev vs my SU85 that's why I'm forced to block one commander slot with the B-4 doctrine"

Ok, but who forced your teammate to make forward medic? It's a high risk - high reward thing.
There are other ways to kill B4, not just stuka.
Stuka zu fuss can do it, fragmentation bomb, sneaky falsch or jaeger, mass attack from flank...

nah I have to disagree. You need at least two fragmentation runs to destroy the B4. And falls /jaeger etc. are only viable if the B4 stands outside the base area. But you are right, that there are more than one doctrins, for the OH to destroy howitzer.

The stuka bomb cost is fine. If your mate has no recon you need 240 muntion to destroy the B4

nah I have to disagree. You need at least two fragmentation runs to destroy the B4. And falls /jaeger etc. are only viable if the B4 stands outside the base area. But you are right, that there are more than one doctrins, for the OH to destroy howitzer.

The stuka bomb cost is fine. If your mate has no recon you need 240 muntion to destroy the B4

To destroy, yes, you need more than 1 run. Yet keep in mind that 1 run means 100% chance to decrew B4 and this means 0 vet and it's almost like loosing B-4 in late game. I know becase I'm using B-4 very very often and decrewing vetted B4 in late game is equal to losing it.

REPOST from old B-4 thread. Shorthand guide to counter and or negate the B-4


1) Don't blob. I giggle everytime I see a blob in the LOF. I laugh like a maniac when I see said blob disappear in a cloud of limps and XP markers. Don't blob and 90 muni is expensive for a single Volks, maybe not ober, but definatly the regular infantry.
2) Shift your direction of the main armour strike. What I want to see is the enemy attacking time and time again on the same place. the I don't have to move the Big Beloved B-4. Moving this fattie takes ages. Seriously 20 seconds, but shifting focus and keep moving means I have to reposition it AGAIN and the difficulty for me to effectivly give fire is reduced.

3) If you retreat a heavy tank that is damaged and I don't know where it went, your repair truck might look like a juciy target. Don't place units in obvious places. Equally if you have felt Stalins sledgehammer blow down upon you, you might wanna rethink retreating infantry to your forward HQ. If you love me you will not move the retreatpoint and I get to see your army go flying.
Also if you have a damaged tank and you start seeing recon aircraft, keep moving them around, shoot the plane and stop somewhere nice to repair, this makes me hate you. If this happens I will do a regular strike in your general direction and donate a pound of butter to Gaben so that RNG will bless me with a hit.

4) Call in the Luftwaffe. Fuck you Göring! Fuck your 50kg bomb and fuck your siren. I hate you.

5) Realise that I have the choice of either hitting your rear area or keeping my B-4 snuggly close to my base, but then not reaching more than your frontlines. (Thats from 4v4 not true in certain 2v2 maps. )

6) Fallshirms, I will burn/blow up/piss on any house behind it. Garden them fallshirms for wiping my crew. Also anything that wipes the crew is a bitch, that is stuka zu fuss, (range a problem? see 5) ) Light artillery barrage, which used to destroy it aswell, now it will most likely decrew it. Fragmentation runs will not decrew it most of the time, put that muni somewhere else.