I like doing things backwards, need theory crafting help.

Yes I know this is the wrong way of thinking up a strategy here but humor me

Say I want to come up with a viable build including stormtroopers with stg44 (hopefully more than just a single squad) and panthers (Two units I really enjoy using) What would you recommend as a build order.

Skipping tier 3 is more or less a must in order to get panthers at a reasonable rate, and that is no problem in and of itself but it leads to some trouble when it comes to the build order. That means I must have some intermediate anti tank capability. AT guns are fine but i would love to be able to have at least one pzg with schrecks to complement it (Also plzgrens with sprint is nice) but with the already costly stg44 upgrade that leaves me low on munitions... (I have no problem getting them a bit later though)

But the biggest issue is the start, id rather not go heavy on grens since I hope to be picking up 2 storms and a pzg squad later on. Ideally I would even like to get a sniper into the mix since they are so nice with sprint, but i'm having trouble getting enough capping and mobility in the beginning. Maybe I could do something with pois, to complement the charging nature of my later troops? Should I mix some light vehicles into the mix? Could I do something wierd like skipping t1 and getting more pois and pzgrens out?

I think you're trying to do too much in too little time with too few resources.

First off, let me ask you this - do you really need stormtroopers AND Pgrens AND an Ostheer sniper? That's a lot of manpower on very few squads - squads that you will always want in combat, not around the map capping. Sure you could add some Pios to the mix to cap, but now you're going to be fighting exclusively with expensive units - thus you'll be lacking any kind of true infantry based backbone, as well as reasonable access to fausts. For starters I think you cut the sniper, cut the Pgrens and just use a couple of gren squads.

Maybe something like 3x Gren, 1 MG 42, tech T2. From there you could tide yourself over with either a 251 HT or a 222 (depending on how good your vehicle micro is). By this point you should be close, if not already to Stormtroopers. Just make sure you add at least 1 PaK 40 whenever enemy vehicles would hit the field - it'll have to be quite early against USF if they went LT tech. Against Soviet you can always abuse looking into the fog for tech structures.

In order to get a Panther in any reasonable amount of time in a 1v1 you're going to be investing a lot of MP into teching, so you'll probably want to camp your side of the map more than going on the offensive so that you can bleed as little as possible. I wouldn't necessarily recommend going straight to a Panther in a 1v1, but if you do get there you should be in a really good spot. Make sure you don't hit any mines and then you can go on the offensive.

I think you're trying to do too much in too little time with too few resources.

First off, let me ask you this - do you really need stormtroopers AND Pgrens AND an Ostheer sniper? That's a lot of manpower on very few squads - squads that you will always want in combat, not around the map capping. Sure you could add some Pios to the mix to cap, but now you're going to be fighting exclusively with expensive units - thus you'll be lacking any kind of true infantry based backbone, as well as reasonable access to fausts. For starters I think you cut the sniper, cut the Pgrens and just use a couple of gren squads.

Maybe something like 3x Gren, 1 MG 42, tech T2. From there you could tide yourself over with either a 251 HT or a 222 (depending on how good your vehicle micro is). By this point you should be close, if not already to Stormtroopers. Just make sure you add at least 1 PaK 40 whenever enemy vehicles would hit the field - it'll have to be quite early against USF if they went LT tech. Against Soviet you can always abuse looking into the fog for tech structures.

In order to get a Panther in any reasonable amount of time in a 1v1 you're going to be investing a lot of MP into teching, so you'll probably want to camp your side of the map more than going on the offensive so that you can bleed as little as possible. I wouldn't necessarily recommend going straight to a Panther in a 1v1, but if you do get there you should be in a really good spot. Make sure you don't hit any mines and then you can go on the offensive.

While I agree 100% with the first part of your statement...(choice of units beeing waaaayy too expensive for it to be viable) , I dont think the 3x gren 1x MG tech is solid enough vs USF at the moment (anything goes vs Soviets so feel free). Even the 222 will get wrecked by a good US player. You just cant skip Grens vs US (vs Soviets also IMO), there is no way, and 4 Grens is a minimum or you will have a very bad day. MG42 is useless right now and using it early will result in a serious lack of map control, making it so youll never get to Panthers fast enough.

LMG Grenadiers are Gold in the current Meta. Grens + PAKS (I always go for 2) can take on anything US. And then I just dont see why you would want to spend manpower AND precious munis on Stormtroopers. Pgrens do just fine...late game with Shrecks are a great counter vs any US Tank.

Finally...Panthers vs Tiger? ...Doing things for the sake of beeing different is great, but your gonna give yourself a headache. They both cost about the same (Tech cost included) and come out at the same time. But Tiger will shred EVRYTHING, while panthers cant do anything vs Infantry (which to me is the dumbest thing!!).

Storms/Panthers in a 2v2 maybe....in a 1v1 not rly.

Yes I know this is the wrong way of thinking up a strategy here but humor me

Say I want to come up with a viable build including stormtroopers with stg44 (hopefully more than just a single squad) and panthers (Two units I really enjoy using) What would you recommend as a build order.

Skipping tier 3 is more or less a must in order to get panthers at a reasonable rate, and that is no problem in and of itself but it leads to some trouble when it comes to the build order. That means I must have some intermediate anti tank capability. AT guns are fine but i would love to be able to have at least one pzg with schrecks to complement it (Also plzgrens with sprint is nice) but with the already costly stg44 upgrade that leaves me low on munitions... (I have no problem getting them a bit later though)

But the biggest issue is the start, id rather not go heavy on grens since I hope to be picking up 2 storms and a pzg squad later on. Ideally I would even like to get a sniper into the mix since they are so nice with sprint, but i'm having trouble getting enough capping and mobility in the beginning. Maybe I could do something with pois, to complement the charging nature of my later troops? Should I mix some light vehicles into the mix? Could I do something wierd like skipping t1 and getting more pois and pzgrens out?

Nah I don't need the sniper it would just be nice since I have the sprint. (It should certainly be considered optional)

I don't need pzgren either but without schreck support I find my AT guns are in danger of getting wasted by aggressive medium tank used before getting the Panther out. And pzgren are a cheaper way of getting more schrecks (booth manpower and munition wise) and I already have the T2 building when going for the AT guns so its not much of a problem. A uppgunned 222 helps against light vehicles but it doesn't stand up until I get the panther up, at least not when I use them...

Your start seems reasonable enough but with that many grens and the storms it ends up over doing the infantry component that are good vs other infantry.

But yea as you point out it is a hard combo to pull off...

A turnaround I could consider would be skipping t2 and going straigt for t3 using storms to cover AT (Yay coh1) they only get one schreck and that alone is a bit weak on the at department (And then I would miss out on using the beutifull stg44, and I would be rolling pz4 instead of pz5) But maybe that is more realistic for 1vs1 and the other build (however it turns out) should be aimed at working in a 2vs2 environment?

I've lost to an ostheer player that went panther zero times this patch. But I guess that's because I haven't even seen one yet.

Then again I have lost to a brummbar rush once this patch, so hey anything is possible.

While I agree 100% with the first part of your statement...(choice of units beeing waaaayy too expensive for it to be viable) , I dont think the 3x gren 1x MG tech is solid enough vs USF at the moment (anything goes vs Soviets so feel free). Even the 222 will get wrecked by a good US player. You just cant skip Grens vs US (vs Soviets also IMO), there is no way, and 4 Grens is a minimum or you will have a very bad day. MG42 is useless right now and using it early will result in a serious lack of map control, making it so youll never get to Panthers fast enough.

LMG Grenadiers are Gold in the current Meta. Grens + PAKS (I always go for 2) can take on anything US. And then I just dont see why you would want to spend manpower AND precious munis on Stormtroopers. Pgrens do just fine...late game with Shrecks are a great counter vs any US Tank.

Finally...Panthers vs Tiger? ...Doing things for the sake of beeing different is great, but your gonna give yourself a headache. They both cost about the same (Tech cost included) and come out at the same time. But Tiger will shred EVRYTHING, while panthers cant do anything vs Infantry (which to me is the dumbest thing!!).

Storms/Panthers in a 2v2 maybe....in a 1v1 not rly.

Well It does not have to be a one vs one build, and I totally admit that is is an attempt to get away from the gren start into tiger. But its also an atempt to use fun units. The speedy panther is fun to use (even though it is crap vs infantry) storms are really fun and deadly vs infantry (though probably to expensive for what they do) the sprint and the tactical advance (together with what feels as higher dps) makes them a fair bit deadlier than pzgres, and setting up ambushes is extremely rewarding.

The advice you've received is very solid, Grens and to a bit of a lesser extent the MG42 are pretty much your staple, consistent units for Ostheer. Gl hf without them

Now putting that aside for a minute, I also enjoy trying out new things and tinkering with the conventional, so i'll try throwing down a few of my experiences with the encirclement doctrine and you can pick from that what you want. I've had success vs top 50 players in 1v1 using unconventional builds with encirclement, but the fact is, if your experimenting, be prepared to fail and take it in your stride, par for the course if your off the beaten track. Take what you can from it, what worked, what showed potential and what fell miserably on its face.

Pios with encirclement aren't complete junk as combat troops in the early game due to sprint, at close range, they make a decent cheap and cheerful assault gren impression. Mainly you want them for capping though, but keep in mind, they can 2v1 cons/rifles handily enough. As the game goes on and units get vet and simply weight of numbers in favour of allies, this won't work though as Pio vet is related to their engineer duties mainly instead of combat. With a flamer though, a pio squad is grand, in the same vein as combat engineers for soviets, except with sprint.

With that in mind, you may be interested in experimenting with a multiple pio start, anywhere from an additional 1 or if you really want to risk it for a biscuit and get early map control, 3/4 additional pios.

So something like, build 3 pio squads (giving you 4), into a quick t2 as you save the initial fuel for t1 building and grab yourself two quick 222's vs USF on open maps, on urban ones, Pgrens instead and tellers (leaving you the option to grab shrecks when the inevitable light vehicle comes, if it dodges the tellers). Then backtech to grab an Mg42 or two to hold the map that you take. At this point you'd have to make a judgement call if they have had enough fuel to get t3 and a tank, if so, you'll need a pack, if not, get yourself a sniper/Stormtrooper squad. I'd really only recommend the stormies if you have the 100 munitions for the upgrade spare (and remember to use cloak and hold fire to pull of ambushes).

You could try for t4, but its a hard ask, if your not quite there fuel wise, the p4 supported does a grand job, just keep in mind how deadly jacksons are.

That is just an example of how I might go about formulating a build vs USF using encirclement, if I really wanted to get the units you listed. So the questions i've asked myself when answering your post are:

How will I get map control? (Early Pios)
How will I counter that 1st light vehicle? (222's on open map/tellers& Shrecks if needed on urban/closed maps)
How will I spend my munitions? (Healing, sprint, and as above depending on the map)
How will I win the manpower war? (By using manpower efficient units via my tech, e.g. Pgrens/222's/Stormtroopers/MG42/Sniper)
How will I tech to capitalise? (t3 if not going well and p4, t4 for panther if going well)
Edit: How much can I comfortably micro? (Often forgot, but units like the ost sniper/light vehicles for example put a tax on your micro)

Anyways that is all pie in the sky, just a rough build i've pulled from my behind and how I thought about it. Hope it helps and sorry I can't give more specific answers.

The advice you've received is very solid, Grens and to a bit of a lesser extent the MG42 are pretty much your staple, consistent units for Ostheer. Gl hf without them

Now putting that aside for a minute, I also enjoy trying out new things and tinkering with the conventional, so i'll try throwing down a few of my experiences with the encirclement doctrine and you can pick from that what you want. I've had success vs top 50 players in 1v1 using unconventional builds with encirclement, but the fact is, if your experimenting, be prepared to fail and take it in your stride, par for the course if your off the beaten track. Take what you can from it, what worked, what showed potential and what fell miserably on its face.

Pios with encirclement aren't complete junk as combat troops in the early game due to sprint, at close range, they make a decent cheap and cheerful assault gren impression. Mainly you want them for capping though, but keep in mind, they can 2v1 cons/rifles handily enough. As the game goes on and units get vet and simply weight of numbers in favour of allies, this won't work though as Pio vet is related to their engineer duties mainly instead of combat. With a flamer though, a pio squad is grand, in the same vein as combat engineers for soviets, except with sprint.

With that in mind, you may be interested in experimenting with a multiple pio start, anywhere from an additional 1 or if you really want to risk it for a biscuit and get early map control, 3/4 additional pios.

So something like, build 3 pio squads (giving you 4), into a quick t2 as you save the initial fuel for t1 building and grab yourself two quick 222's vs USF on open maps, on urban ones, Pgrens instead and tellers (leaving you the option to grab shrecks when the inevitable light vehicle comes, if it dodges the tellers). Then backtech to grab an Mg42 or two to hold the map that you take. At this point you'd have to make a judgement call if they have had enough fuel to get t3 and a tank, if so, you'll need a pack, if not, get yourself a sniper/Stormtrooper squad. I'd really only recommend the stormies if you have the 100 munitions for the upgrade spare (and remember to use cloak and hold fire to pull of ambushes).

You could try for t4, but its a hard ask, if your not quite there fuel wise, the p4 supported does a grand job, just keep in mind how deadly jacksons are.

That is just an example of how I might go about formulating a build vs USF using encirclement, if I really wanted to get the units you listed. So the questions i've asked myself when answering your post are:

How will I get map control? (Early Pios)
How will I counter that 1st light vehicle? (222's on open map/tellers& Shrecks if needed on urban/closed maps)
How will I spend my munitions? (Healing, sprint, and as above depending on the map)
How will I win the manpower war? (By using manpower efficient units via my tech, e.g. Pgrens/222's/Stormtroopers/MG42/Sniper)
How will I tech to capitalise? (t3 if not going well and p4, t4 for panther if going well)
Edit: How much can I comfortably micro? (Often forgot, but units like the ost sniper/light vehicles for example put a tax on your micro)

Anyways that is all pie in the sky, just a rough build i've pulled from my behind and how I thought about it. Hope it helps and sorry I can't give more specific answers.

That's more along the route of stupid stuff I was after

I no it is gimping to a certain extent, but I will play around with it a bit

i dont think you can really plan a build order past your first 3 units or so. You have to re-act to whats going on in the game, you cant just stick to some arbitrary build order and hope your opponent just builds stuff that can be countered by your pre-planned build order.

Only reason there is to discuss a STARTING build order because for your first few units you have no idea what your opponent could be building.

The advice you've received is very solid, Grens and to a bit of a lesser extent the MG42 are pretty much your staple, consistent units for Ostheer. Gl hf without them

........................................

This. +1

But it is a strat forum, so back to topic.....

hey....IMperialDAne just poste a game where he goes with Storms and Panthers vs a US player.... nice coincidence

Havent watched the match yet...just browsed through it...might help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_EKN_9cTUU&feature=youtu.be

First of to all the people just reaffirming that grens are the staple, I know that full well and state in the OP that the biggest issue is the start since I would rather not go heavy on the grens.

i dont think you can really plan a build order past your first 3 units or so. You have to re-act to whats going on in the game, you cant just stick to some arbitrary build order and hope your opponent just builds stuff that can be countered by your pre-planned build order.

Only reason there is to discuss a STARTING build order because for your first few units you have no idea what your opponent could be building.

I absolutely agree with you, but that doesn't change the fact that you usually have long term goals with a strategy, and ideas about how you would like to counter the opponent at different stages of the game. Its not as if a COH1 terror player with zombie grens were not hoping for a KT to come out eventually

Okay... I just lost a long detailed post about my testing and conclution so far (since it had logged me out), and now I got to go, so I cant retype all of it

In short Pios with sprint to t2 and 222's work surprisingly good and is fun to play with, it is micro intensive and there are some map related issues even on open maps (Encirclement wants maps with "strong" cutoffs but the fluid pio map control cant fight a bunched up enemy force) I have explored different paths from there and there is potential in some of them.

What I would love is a replay from someone better than me (should not be to hard) going sprinting encirclement pios into t2 and were you take it from there.

PS: I noticed the propagandacast as well and it was a good example of some unusual and fun unit choices.

Not exactly what your looking for, but here is one variant of a build using encirclement+pios+stormtroopers+fast Ostwind I have tried out on the 1v1 ladder. No t1 or t2, so a very risky one and vs the USF you need t2 as I mention, but hope it helps give you some ideas and it could certainly be refined much more. I think less pios into t2 is a more stable build, albeit also pretty out there and risky!

http://www.coh2.org/topic/26961/the-cheese-series--a-competition/post/245498

Sweet, and its even casted