Relic, an idea for Volksgrenadier improvement

I thought it would be cool if...

Volksgrenadiers get a 40-50 mp package of 3 stg44's and the panzerfaust ability.

Single schreck with cold immunity gets moved to the sturmpioneer but costs 60 munitions.

And r43 can shoot as soon as all other at guns when it sets up.

With this, OKW has better counters to early AT, and volks are still valuable. No LMG's. There are better ways to make a squad better without needing to drop an LMG into their hands. Schreck is cheaper so it is still a good choice, but it cannot be blobbed. Best handheld AT weapon on cheapest squad... A no brainer upgrade and strat. And OKW infantry AT ability doesnt go down with this suggestion.

I thought it would be cool if...

Volksgrenadiers get a 40-50 mp package of 3 stg44's and the panzerfaust ability.

Single schreck with cold immunity gets moved to the sturmpioneer but costs 60 munitions.

And r43 can shoot as soon as all other at guns when it sets up.

With this, OKW has better counters to early AT, and volks are still valuable. No LMG's. There are better ways to make a squad better without needing to drop an LMG into their hands. Schreck is cheaper so it is still a good choice, but it cannot be blobbed. Best handheld AT weapon on cheapest squad... A no brainer upgrade and strat. And OKW infantry AT ability doesnt go down with this suggestion.

Best handheld AT on cheapest squad?? 320 MP... This would leave OKW with extremely fragile sturmpio AT and would have to rely way more heavily on the unreliable raketen. Terrible idea.

I thought it would be cool if...

Volksgrenadiers get a 40-50 mp package of 3 stg44's and the panzerfaust ability.

Single schreck with cold immunity gets moved to the sturmpioneer but costs 60 munitions.

And r43 can shoot as soon as all other at guns when it sets up.

With this, OKW has better counters to early AT, and volks are still valuable. No LMG's. There are better ways to make a squad better without needing to drop an LMG into their hands. Schreck is cheaper so it is still a good choice, but it cannot be blobbed. Best handheld AT weapon on cheapest squad... A no brainer upgrade and strat. And OKW infantry AT ability doesnt go down with this suggestion.

I highly recommend you read this this short wiki article on Volksgrenadiers, and if you feel so inclined, the just as short one concerning the Volkssturm. I found them to be very enlightening.


"The strategic emergency and concomitant manpower shortage resulting from the losses in mid-1944 required the creation of infantry divisions that economized on personnel and emphasized defensive strength over offensive strength."

"The Volksgrenadier divisions met this need by using only six line infantry battalions instead of the normal nine for infantry divisions — already a common reality for many existing divisions."

"The units also had a higher proportion of submachineguns and light automatic weapons and thus relied more on short-range firepower than in standard German Army infantry units."

"Automatic weapons like the new "wonder weapon" Sturmgewehr 44 and anti-tank weaponry like the single shot panzerfaust were also used by Volksgrenadier units."


I find this article to be my main inspiration for my suggestions concerning Volksgrenadiers.



History is not always the answer to video game balance, especially for games based on historical events. Though history may have some suggestions and ideas that we can co-opt, and further inspire even better ideas that can potentially better the game in profound ways.

Best handheld AT on cheapest squad?? 320 MP... This would leave OKW with extremely fragile sturmpio AT and would have to rely way more heavily on the unreliable raketen. Terrible idea.

I was complaining about volk - schrecks. Volks can snare vehicles with a panzerfaust and kill with a raketen. Handheld AT spam isnt supposed to be mainline AT. Sturmpioneers would be worth keeping around to scare tanks. Guess you hate panzergrenadiers - i suggested drastically cheaper panzerschreck to compensate the change. It may just be me, but i kind of find it extremely stupid that storming with masses of cheap infantry at tanks provides better results than countering those tanks with your own tanks.

I kind of did suggest making the Raketen MORE RELIABLE. To go with panzerfaust snare.

I wont be reading further. I think it does provide slightly better use than now, which is better than nothing. I would still use it since... Cheaper schrecks, useful stg's to beat infantry at close range, and snares for early m3 and tanks later on.

It may just be me, but i kind of find it extremely stupid that storming with masses of cheap infantry at tanks provides better results than countering those tanks with your own tanks.

Well there was a time where our tanks were capable of handling fire and dealing out damage from 2-3 simultaneous targets. But some complaints were made, some nerfs were implemented. It's all this big "thing" that we don't like to talk about.


In any case I'm just trying to help solve the issue by providing the idea of options rather than taking away options. I don't want the Volksgrens to have the strength or capability of the Obersoldaten, that would be insanity. But surely an anti-infantry package like I suggested would provide enough close range power to dissuade Allied players from simply hugging the Volksgren squads, while simultaneously the Longer range capabilities of the single LMG-34/42 and single STG-44 would make them more capable at mid/long range while lacking the precision of the K-98k's to make any real kills without closing in.


This would also lock them out of opting for Panzershreks, leaving them vulnerable to vehicles, unless supported by a Raketenwerfer, a vehicle, or a supporting AT squad.

Well there was a time where our tanks were capable of handling fire and dealing out damage from 2-3 simultaneous targets. But some complaints were made, some nerfs were implemented. It's all this big "thing" that we don't like to talk about.


In any case I'm just trying to help solve the issue by providing the idea of options rather than taking away options. I don't want the Volksgrens to have the strength or capability of the Obersoldaten, that would be insanity. But surely an anti-infantry package like I suggested would provide enough close range power to dissuade Allied players from simply hugging the Volksgren squads, while simultaneously the Longer range capabilities of the single LMG-34/42 and single STG-44 would make them more capable at mid/long range while lacking the precision of the K-98k's to make any real kills without closing in.


This would also lock them out of opting for Panzershreks, leaving them vulnerable to vehicles, unless supported by a Raketenwerfer, a vehicle, or a supporting AT squad.

I was hoping panzerfaust would fit somewhere because the main complaint about early game OKW is the m3 and m20 (when a puma js not around) Both will always overcome a raketen, and push a schrecked volks to death. Grenadier panzerfaust is tough to cancel (at least it homes far) and further so on a 5 man squad.

I liked the idea of the STG upgrade because it should be enough to beat riflemen at its optimal range - so managing to flank the enemy's infantry would force them to retreat. Meanwhile, kar98 volks would stall by firing at range. Right now, eventually become pretty indestructible through vet, but they dont become AI machines (and everyone argue that they shouldnt be AI machines as well).

Id rather not expand upon the LMG meta - since upgrading to LMG's and firing at range would be a better choice than all the other upgrades. And we can consider other options before we consider lastly to make volksgrens more like ostheer grens. An LMG42 upgrade would be tolerable - more tolerable than the lmg34. Obers should only have those - since the lmg34 has twice the DPS as the lmg42. Also, imagine volks dropping lmg34's and the enemy picking them up. That would be pretty bad...

I tried being less Allied-for by being... German-for :/ But OKW capability vs. Early light vehicles is somewhat problematic...

Nobody would buy a combat package on volks, unless Obers had their LMG34 removed. Why spend munitions when you can get the same thing for free?

I don't agree with the "munition sink" idea, but I totally agree that the volks blob is an issue, and that's because it's so effective. Giving OKW other options and more versatility on their line infantry is a good idea, gives players more options and makes the game more fun.
The idea of some kind of "AI Combat package" is great (just like good ol' volks from vCoH), but this might turn into somthing else. People start blobbing Volks instead of Ubers because they are so effective. And besides, I know you just gave and example, but the weapon selection you mentioned is wrong IMO. MP40s are completely useless, and 1 LMG plus 2 assault rifles might make them too powerful in all ranges, specially in higher vets when they actually can not be killed. I think it's better to give them a package like "5xMP40s" or "3xSTG44s" might be a better idea, to make them some kind of flanking infantry to be able to both clear buildings and countering team weapons.

Nobody would buy a combat package on volks, unless Obers had their LMG34 removed. Why spend munitions when you can get the same thing for free?

How about spending less manpower when reinforcing? Or the fact that Obersoldaten are dedicated Anti-Infantry specialists who destroy infantry with every shot where as Volksgrenadiers with their poor accuracy modifiers (unless Vet-5) will perform consistently less than.


Also by making Obersoldaten less crucial to the meta, Volksgrenadiers with an anti-infantry combat package would be preferable, maybe even encourage the construction of the Med-Base + the Mechanized base over a fast Panzer Schwerer HQ.

So the idea, would be to give the OKW Volksgrenadiers a automatic weapons combat package that includes 1x LMG-34/42, 1x STG-44, and 2x MP-40's. Completely removing the KAR-98k from their inventory, locking out panzershreks, and giving them coats for cold immunity.


Perhaps this combat package can also give them a couple grenade options, although I'm just slinging ideas.



This would allow Volksgrenadiers to be less reliant on Obersoldaten and Sturmpioneers, while also providing an excellent and viable munitions sink aside from more panzershreks.

How about spending less manpower when reinforcing? Or the fact that Obersoldaten are dedicated Anti-Infantry specialists who destroy infantry with every shot where as Volksgrenadiers with their poor accuracy modifiers (unless Vet-5) will perform consistently less than.

Uhmm....volks have literally the best vet bonuses in the game.

(This list is quoted from the link below. It is a very interesting read, and I suggest everyone check it out)

Vet 1: 480 experience. Reduces accuracy against Volks by 10%. (.9 received accuracy modifier).
Vet 2: 960 experience. Increases accuracy by 30%, and increases rate of fire between reloads by 20% (a bit more complicated, but that's the gist; this gets messy with automatic weapons). (1.3 accuracy modifier; .8 weapon cooldown modifier).
Vet 3: 1920 experience. Reduces accuracy against Volks by 10% and enables 20/HP minute regeneration. (.9 received accuracy modifier).
Vet 4: 2400 experience. Increases weapon accuracy by 30% and sight range by 40%. (1.3 accuracy modifier; 1.4 sight radius modifier).
Vet 5: 3192(!) experience. Reduces accuracy against Volks by 29%. (.71 received accuracy modifier).


Aggregate veterancy bonuses: 42.5% reduction in accuracy against Volks; 69% increase in weapon accuracy; 20% increase in fire rate between reloads; 40% increase in sight range.

Sorry Sierra, but not only do volks have absurd accuracy scaling, but they don't even have to wait until vet 5 to start benefiting from those bonuses. That post is just pure misinformation.

If volks kept their current vet bonuses, giving them a weapon package like this would be HILARIOUSLY broken. A volks squad with an LMG34 is already more effective than a squad of obers because the accuracy bonuses scale like crazy with it and they are cheaper to reinforce and much, much more durable. Check out this article for refrence.

Instead of blobs of shrecks w/ obers for support, you'd just have cheaper, more effective volks with blobs of shrecks to support. This change wouldn't just make the OKW less reliant on obers and other elite infantry, it would completely outclass them. There would be literally no reason to build anything but volks in this scenario.

That being said, I think the general idea of providing the OKW player with more appealing options for their munitions could help the issue with shreck blobs. Just spitballing here, but perhaps something like a long range accuracy nerf to shrecks, coupled with a (significant) raketen buff, and fuel gated global mp40 upgrade for volks could help diversify the meta and make the OKW less reliant on shrecks as the only form of non fuel based AT.

I don't agree with the "munition sink" idea, but I totally agree that the volks blob is an issue, and that's because it's so effective. Giving OKW other options and more versatility on their line infantry is a good idea, gives players more options and makes the game more fun.
The idea of some kind of "AI Combat package" is great (just like good ol' volks from vCoH), but this might turn into somthing else. People start blobbing Volks instead of Ubers because they are so effective. And besides, I know you just gave and example, but the weapon selection you mentioned is wrong IMO. MP40s are completely useless, and 1 LMG plus 2 assault rifles might make them too powerful in all ranges, specially in higher vets when they actually can not be killed. I think it's better to give them a package like "5xMP40s" or "3xSTG44s" might be a better idea, to make them some kind of flanking infantry to be able to both clear buildings and countering team weapons.

You mixed up what I said mate.


I said the combat package should be 1x LMG-42, 3x MP-40's, 1x STG-44. If I said 2x MP-40's then I did the math wrong and was calculating for a 4-man squad, not a five man by mistake. (I am by far NOT a mathematical person.)


Also we already have dedicated flanking infantry with 4x STG-44's in the Sturmpioneers, so we are back where we started.

The MP-40's are dedicated hugging range weapons (though apparently nowhere near as good as the PPSh 9_9 )

That would leave the STG-44 and the LMG-42 to do damage at mid-far range until the squad closes in, or the opposing squad closes in. It's a truly dedicated combat package though.

I was originally kind of okay with this idea because it's a good concession to reduce schreck spam while making up for the loss of a STG on sturmpioneers and a nod to the 4 kar98/1 stg loadout vcoh volks had. Then I thought of how it would work on a volk squad.

The problem with a weapon upgrade is that volks become one of the most durable infantry in the entire game while being one of the cheapest mainline combat infantry. If you give them an upgrade and it transfers between models upon death you can kill half the squad and it's damage will remain largely the same. If they had the equivalent of one sturmpioneer stg for example, at range 15 that one model would account for almost half the squad's dps (going up or down depending on range).


Maybe I'm over thinking it.

Maybe I'm over thinking it.

You may indeed be overthinking it.

Remember people, Volksgrenadiers only achieve vet quickly because of PANZERSHREKS, and their consistent combat with mechanized units

This means that if you make your Volksgrenadiers become anti-infantry specialists over Anti-Armor specialists. They would then gain vet slower, and any that survive to Vet-5 would indeed have earned it.


Also I find that Vet-5 Volksgrens still aren't quite as durable as Shocktroops, just my opinion though I guess.

You may indeed be overthinking it.

Remember people, Volksgrenadiers only achieve vet quickly because of PANZERSHREKS, and their consistent combat with mechanized units

This means that if you make your Volksgrenadiers become anti-infantry specialists over Anti-Armor specialists. They would then gain vet slower, and any that survive to Vet-5 would indeed have earned it.


Also I find that Vet-5 Volksgrens still aren't quite as durable as Shocktroops, just my opinion though I guess.

Except that if you gave them an arsenal of heavy weapons like that they would scale just as fast. Volks get a 30% accuracy bonus at vet 2. Did you read my previous post about why this specific scenario would be off the charts broken, and undoubtedly terrible for the game?

volk have ok for AT Role Should Rework Vet Bouns by remove or reduce Rec.acc bouns
and can add Reduce Reload time bonus ?
decease AI performance bouns and use Ober For AI Role (but I need discuss Ober too)

Vet 5 volk vs shock troops is kind of a case of what's shooting though! Incendiary rounds: The only Wehrmacht approved butter-knife!

The vet is a secondary concern (for the reason you pointed out). It's the concentration of damage to one model that could be a problem. With grens and their LMG it's "less" of an issue because you lose some pretty solid damage with each rifle lost and they have less health to plow through in total.

I will say it's an idea worth experimenting with despite my reservations (not that what I say means much ). I do feel it should be a minor (add a weapon) change that would simply help them hold their own against infantry with munition investments.

EDIT:
Something I do have to say about your multiple weapon combat package (I didn't quite grasp the scale of your suggestion until now) though is that it's pretty much unworkable. For one thing the LMG would be dropping all the time and weapons wouldn't pass on. Secondly it would either end up replacing all other infantry with volks or just never purchased. You're basically saying you want to copy how US infantry works except with expensive rather than cheap engineers.

Not no, But HELL NO!

If u want stg-44's?

Learn how to build sturm pios

If u want mg 34's?

Learn how to build obers

Edit: im starting to ignore seirra. What the hell makes u think that mainline infantry should get the best all around assualt weapon in-game? And MG 34s? no no NO!

Do u think before u make these posts!?!?!
Honestly?!?!

It is a decently interesting idea that I've thought about before but giving volks anything but a panzershreck doesn't seem all that worth it unless there is some specific tie-in for each upgrade. Something like T1 gives schreck since no early AT and T2 gives the assault package. I don't quite agree with giving them an lmg since the OKW have more than enough long-ranged options. Also isn't the MG-34 crew just volks acting as a crew anyways?
If the idea is considered Volks could rather get the mp-3008 and volkssturmgewehr but not really all that important. More emphasis on them getting the mp-3008 rather than the volkssturmgewehr since Sturms already have that plenty covered. These weapons are probably too late for this time period anyways. lel

G43s?

VG 1-5?

volks can't have a AI upragde as long as cons don't have a upragde at all (non doctrinal). And volks with ST-44 with vet 5 will be terminators.