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russian armor

Mark Target

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13 Nov 2014, 18:02 PM
#41
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322



Mark target immediately stops your tanks, making them immobile and perfect targets.

(Alternatively, drive back to the base and sacrifice a tank for a small duration in trade for wasted munitions)


Making you be down a tank on a critical engagement is not a counter, Especially after you shot the plane down.
13 Nov 2014, 18:02 PM
#42
avatar of ungodlike

Posts: 62

The only problem is 0 counterplay nothing you can do can prevent it or stop it.

BS you kill all the units that could kill the target the player marked, or get the unit marked out of there/
13 Nov 2014, 18:02 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

The only problem is 0 counterplay nothing you can do can prevent it or stop it.


You can move away.

Mark target is as strong as soviet army before you.

If you are not in range of any, its most expensive and least effective reckon in game.
13 Nov 2014, 18:04 PM
#44
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053



Making you be down a tank on a critical engagement is not a counter, Especially after you shot the plane down.


What? ... So a counter is a light switch that turns mark target off when you want it to go away? It isnt permanent, so waiting for something to go away indefinitely IS a way to deal with it.
13 Nov 2014, 18:06 PM
#45
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322



What? ... So a counter is a light switch that turns mark target off when you want it to go away? It isnt permanent, so waiting for something to go away indefinitely IS a way to deal with it.


It's not perm, But it dose have a long duration.
13 Nov 2014, 18:06 PM
#46
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 17:46 PMNinjaWJ
There are Axis heavies everywhere in 3v3 and higher. Mark Target is needed.
This is exactly the kind of flawed thinking that leads to the stale meta we have currently. Nothing should ever be "needed". The solution to the problem you just stated is to nerf axis heavies, not leave mark target in an overpowered state.

But, those aren't doctrinal, and its not hard getting german armor to vet 1. the kt and jt doesn't even need blitz they deny allied armor and infantry(kt) the moment they arrive and not only that they have an array of rockkatten and volks/ober/pfusiler blobs around them and eveything that shoots at them bounces, but you know mark target thats the op thing here

Yes, it is definitely overpowered. Those things might be overpowered too, but that doesn't change the fact that mark target is also overpowered.

So...

Its okay for German stuff to do what it wants because it costs so much...

But proper Allied investments of the same magnitude shouldn't be rewarding...

Can we remove Allies please? Germans on Germans? I bet the game would be super balanced then because of logic.



Thats a great idea, why even bother having allies any way? Its like relic is purposely making this game to cater to axis fanboys because they know everyone loves za germans. I mean this game has inferred stg44's for fucks sake.


This sarcasm isn't particularly constructive. Neither are expletives. I'm certainly open to reasonable counter-argument. Why do you think mark target should stay as it is?

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 17:56 PMKatitof
I wouldn't mind nerf/change, but but FIRST soviet stock units need to be able to deal with axis heavies. Without that you can't really nerf anything that helps allies deal with heavies.

I completely agree.

13 Nov 2014, 18:08 PM
#47
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

I think we can all agree that stock soviet units need some overhaul because they suck.
13 Nov 2014, 18:09 PM
#48
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Mark target is as OP as the unit its intended to pawn. Make the targets its supposed to mark easier to deal with, and Mark Target could vanish altogether.
13 Nov 2014, 18:12 PM
#49
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 18:06 PMRomeo
This is exactly the kind of flawed thinking that leads to the stale meta we have currently. Nothing should ever be "needed". The solution to the problem you just stated is to nerf axis heavies, not leave mark target in an overpowered state.


Yes, it is definitely overpowered. Those things might be overpowered too, but that doesn't change the fact that mark target is also overpowered.





This sarcasm isn't particularly constructive. Neither are expletives. I'm certainly open to reasonable counter-argument. Why do you think mark target should stay as it is?


I completely agree.



Why is should stay? Because I said it before it you lose a tank to mark target 9 time out of 10 it is YOUR FAULT, in order for it to be effective you have to be able to flank his/her tank and at that point its your fault for over extending and supporting your armor. Unless ofcourse there is an reliable at weapon in this game the allies have that is non doctrinal that can reliability fight axis armor and has decent armor and health, than in that case yes mark target should be nerfed. Not only that of all the things in the game you chose marktarget? Like thats the most game breaking thing in the game, because the allies have such great at capabilities oh wait.......
13 Nov 2014, 18:12 PM
#50
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Mark target is as OP as the unit its intended to pawn. .


Thanks for re-stating what I already said.... :guyokay:
13 Nov 2014, 18:13 PM
#51
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Don't forget about the Command Panther :P

It seems that everyone who plays Allies here are afraid of the idea/dream of being able to play at the same level with Axis with stock units.

Does Mark Vehicle needs to be change ASAP? Nope. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tweak EVER.
13 Nov 2014, 18:16 PM
#52
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

But, those aren't doctrinal, and its not hard getting german armor to vet 1. the kt and jt doesn't even need blitz they deny allied armor and infantry(kt) the moment they arrive and not only that they have an array of rockkatten and volks/ober/pfusiler blobs around them and eveything that shoots at them bounces, but you know mark target thats the op thing here


so change mark target to increase pen vs targeted vehicles. they way i always expected the ability to work... how the fuck is a plane spotting a fucking vehicle going to increase a shells dmg? i know its not much better with penetration being increased, but at least one could argue that a spotted vehicle is easier to aim at, hence increasing the likeliness of hitting a weakpoint thus penetrating. imo thats a buff to the ability considering that many allied weapons dont penetrate axis heavies very well and reliable (lower) damage through higher pen, is (again this is my opinion) better than higher but unreliable dmg. you wont be able to burst heavies, as you are now, but it will make a lot of low pen AT weapons better... in theory
13 Nov 2014, 18:16 PM
#53
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

Don't forget about the Command Panther :P

It seems that everyone who plays Allies here are afraid of the idea/dream of being able to play at the same level with Axis with stock units.

Does Mark Vehicle needs to be change ASAP? Nope. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tweak EVER.


Command panther's version is weaker is it not? its still BS for the same reason as the allied one, No way to counteract the effect.
13 Nov 2014, 18:18 PM
#54
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



so change mark target to increase pen vs targeted vehicles. they way i always expected the ability to work... how the fuck is a plane spotting a fucking vehicle going to increase a shells dmg? i know its not much better with penetration being increased, but at least one could argue that a spotted vehicle is easier to aim at, hence increasing the likeliness of hitting a weakpoint thus penetrating. imo thats a buff to the ability considering that many allied weapons dont penetrate axis heavies very well and reliable (lower) damage through higher pen, is (again this is my opinion) better than higher but unreliable dmg. you wont be able to burst heavies, as you could now, but it will make a lot of low pen AT wpns a lot better


I completely agree, In fact I proposed this change a few patches ago when relic nerfed mark target, but everyone cried that was op so......
13 Nov 2014, 18:18 PM
#55
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

Just thought I'd bring some neutrality to this scorched earth policy/book burning in the making. If fixing mark target is a class 1 priority I'm with napalm, I do not think this ability in light of the tank hunting Stuka at the present time represents a severe issue. At least it takes some form of work if used with tanks, whereas in team games you can drop OKW flares for some heavy hitting off maps on b4's or just provide site for you Jagdtiger hiding inside the fog of war, making these mark target strategies a cause and effect item. Two way street is what I'm boiling this down too, so closing it too one way is not a constructive solution, if Relic could implement more simultaneous balance changes rather than the present approach we've all seen where it's put it in, see if it becomes a silly meta then fix it with band aids (30 muni assault gren memories) approach we wouldn't need this discussion but alas this is no utopia


This has been a mobile message of lulz and neutrality brought to you by,

Switzerland <444>3
13 Nov 2014, 18:19 PM
#56
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 17:52 PMRomeo
How frequently the synergies occur is not really relevant. They are possible, they are overpowered, and they need to be changed. Just because something isn't seen that often doesn't mean it should be left alone forever (see SU-76).

That's because soviet late game is too strong. Double soviets was nearly unbeatable in the SCC. I also support buffs to almost all soviet core units. Do you really enjoy relying 90% on commander features to have any chance of winning a game?.


It is a different league than the SU76. The SU76 already exists as a unit. It is up to the player to build it or not. But the situation you are saying requires the stars to be aligned: the right units, the right vet, the right positioning, etc.

Soviet late game too strong? That is hilarious. Maybe in 1v1, but you are saying the Mark Target is the the reason why Soviet late game is so good in 2v2+? That. Soviets lack that late game punch, unless you have a bunch of ISUs around. You aren't making the commander-dependent soviets any better by changing the mark target.
13 Nov 2014, 18:20 PM
#57
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

Why is should stay? Because I said it before it you lose a tank to mark target 9 time out of 10 it is YOUR FAULT, in order for it to be effective you have to be able to flank his/her tank and at that point its your fault for over extending and supporting your armor.
I think ideally this would be a valid argument but it's not really true. The synergy with B4 and P-47 mean that your opponent could lose a heavy tank through no fault of their own at all. I'd like to see Mark Target continue to be a great way to punish an over extended axis tank but not a way to wipe it out using only indirect fire. What's wrong with changing the ability to give increased penetration instead of damage, for example?

Unless ofcourse there is an reliable at weapon in this game the allies have that is non doctrinal that can reliability fight axis armor and has decent armor and health, than in that case yes mark target should be nerfed. Not only that of all the things in the game you chose marktarget? Like thats the most game breaking thing in the game, because the allies have such great at capabilities oh wait.......
I think the allies definitely need those things. And this isn't even close to the only thing in the game that I think needs changing. Haven't you seen the issue tracker that I maintain?

13 Nov 2014, 18:30 PM
#58
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 18:20 PMRomeo
I think ideally this would be a valid argument but it's not really true. The synergy with B4 and P-47 mean that your opponent could lose a heavy tank through no fault of their own at all. I'd like to see Mark Target continue to be a great way to punish an over extended axis tank but not a way to wipe it out using only indirect fire. What's wrong with changing the ability to give increased penetration instead of damage, for example?

I think the allies definitely need those things. And this isn't even close to the only thing in the game that I think needs changing. Haven't you seen the issue tracker that I maintain?



I can agree with what you are saying, but the problem here is that the underlying issue of why these abilities are being abused won't be addressed, because relic. What will happen here as per relic logic is that they will nerf it to the ground as they always do. Instead of looking at the underlying logic of what this unit/ability is being abused, snipers? because sov stock infantry suck, P47 because usf at suck, mark target? sov at suck. Instead of nerfing then to reasonable levels and adjusting the game to compensate the nerf I.E. adjusting stock units to be more effective, they just give it a massive nerf bat and maybe compensate for it 1 or 2 patch cycles later. Yes I've seen the issue tracker and its quite impressive, I wish something like this exist for coh1/dow2.
13 Nov 2014, 18:31 PM
#59
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



I can agree with what you are saying, but the problem here is that the underlying issue of why these abilities are being abused won't be addressed, because relic. What will happen here as per relic logic is that they will nerf it to the ground as they always do. Instead of looking at the underlying logic of why this unit/ability is being abused, snipers? because sov stock infantry suck, P47? because usf at suck, mark target? sov at suck. Instead of nerfing then to reasonable levels and adjusting the game to compensate the nerf I.E. adjusting stock units to be more effective, they just give it a massive nerf bat and maybe compensate for it 1 or 2 patch cycles later. Yes I've seen the issue tracker and its quite impressive, I wish something like this exist for coh1/dow2.
13 Nov 2014, 18:34 PM
#60
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

I can agree with what you are saying, but the problem here is that the underlying issue of why these abilities are being abused won't be addressed, because relic.

Well in that case I guess we should just give up :D
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