T2 start

Hey

Has anyone tried skipping T1 altogether for Ostheer in favour of T2 and spamming those PGs and ACs?

I think PGs tend to tear apart conscripts and what PGs can't deal with, ACs can

You can build your first PG by the 3-4 minute mark in most cases

This was fairly usual during the Alpha I found, when the ACs were utterly retarded.

3 pios to T2 is quite common. Everything in T2 can win... Pz's, ACs against those annoying trucks, Flamer HT against weapon crews.

This was fairly usual during the Alpha I found, when the ACs were utterly retarded.

then again, why get an AC, when you can have a brummbär out 3-4 minutes later? remember, in alpha, brummbär had same penetration and damage as the panther MVGame

i don't think i lost a single game with 4 pio -> brummbär spam in the alpha

How would you stop 3 conscripts flame HT T34 rush with 4 pios and Brummbar rush? x)

Brummbar just rape T34

but about this strat - you'd need fast flamer to kill some cons, and i dont suggest to make PG first, Scout care or HT would be better (reinforce for example), then some PG's, but i've never played that strat before

How would you stop 3 conscripts flame HT T34 rush with 4 pios and Brummbar rush? x)

as i said, in alpha, brummbär had same dmg/pen as panther, so brummbär could kill pretty much every tank... and it will also one or two shot conscript squads...
in alpha, as you might remember, teching was even faster than it is right now, so usually, my first brummbär would be out before the 8 or 9 minute mark...

I haven't played much multiplayer but I tend to like the 2 pioneer start better because you don't really need that many pioneers - it's not like VCoH where you can use them to lay mines all over the map (BTW, I want COH2 to bring back those mines, they were awesome). IMO, pios might end up being a manpower sink because they really can't fight without the flamethrower so if you build 3 pios, you're really looking to endgame when they're useful in repairing tanks.

@Barton - Why would you want to use MP to reinforce pioneers which can't fight when you can instead build a few PGs that can reliably kill conscripts and later do some good damage against tanks?

HT is immune to small arms fire, such as consripts, M3, if you have 4 pios, you can just rush enemy, reinforce loses, if cons throw AT nade you can quickly repair it, HT isn't cost that much and it's worth it, later you can upgrade to flammenwerfer, HT can also push enemy

Panzergrenadier cost is 360 MP, HT is like 80/25?

Sorry, doesn't the German H/T Cost more? Around 160 manpower and idk fuel. I think 80/25 is the cost for an AC. But yeah, the German HT would definitely be worth it though, probably not while you don't really have any proper infantry.

What you do after 2 PGs AC is up to you I suppose.

But yeah, if you just build 2 pioneers, you should be floating around 700-800 MP for it so you can definitely get those PGs out - it's kinda like the 6 pio start T2 against brits.

as i said, in alpha, brummbär had same dmg/pen as panther, so brummbär could kill pretty much every tank... and it will also one or two shot conscript squads...
in alpha, as you might remember, teching was even faster than it is right now, so usually, my first brummbär would be out before the 8 or 9 minute mark...

Yep that's right, but I would also add that in the alpha Russian flamers into HT were unstoppable and could go in base and democharge the HQ way before 8-9 minutes ^^

This strategy is not effective in 1v1. It gives up far too much map control against an aggressive Soviet player. ACs and Halftracks are countered by AT grenades without a problem (especially when the Soviet player has munitions income from the entire map that he controls), Panzergrenadiers lose 1v2 to Conscripts.

Very little is gained by skipping T1, I'd recommend watching any replays you can find of Sepha as Germans, I've learned a lot from his play.

This strategy is not effective in 1v1. It gives up far too much map control against an aggressive Soviet player. ACs and Halftracks are countered by AT grenades without a problem (especially when the Soviet player has munitions income from the entire map that he controls), Panzergrenadiers lose 1v2 to Conscripts.

Very little is gained by skipping T1, I'd recommend watching any replays you can find of Sepha as Germans, I've learned a lot from his play.

I've also found it can be bad in 2v2 as well, where again the problem is giving up too much map control and also not being to able to support your team mate for the first few minutes of the game.

It really depends on what the Soviet is doing. If they do a constant stream of flamers in HT's mixed in with a few Conscripts then a fast AC would work fine.

It really depends on what the Soviet is doing. If they do a constant stream of flamers in HT's mixed in with a few Conscripts then a fast AC would work fine.

True, but there's no way to predict the Soviet opening before committing to the T2 start, and if you guess wrong you're screwed (assuming equal skill level). By contrast, a 2 grenadier 1 MG opening with a slightly later AC can also counter the flamer HTs and doesn't get destroyed by the 4 conscript opening.

It really depends on what the Soviet is doing. If they do a constant stream of flamers in HT's mixed in with a few Conscripts then a fast AC would work fine.

It's quite simple to determine whether or not the German player is doing some kind of T2 rush. If they're completely giving up map control and you've only seen 1 or 2 pioneers, the most logical option would be to upgrade AT grenades and get maybe a single scout car instead of two, then tech to t3 or t4. Scout cars counter PGs pretty hard, unlike Grenadiers, and there is nothing stopping the Soviet player from rushing the scout car into the German's base once the conscripts double AT grenaded the German AC. Even if the German player doesn't rush an AC with their T2, scout cars counter PGs (no panzerfaust, a single panzershrekt doesn't do enough damage to disable the car before the PGs have to retreat). In the time it takes for the German player to get out enough forces to reasonably counter the Soviets, they'll have teched to T34s or SU-76s, both of which counter PGs, ACs, and the SU-76 counters AT guns, not to mention Conscripts and Engineers with flamethrowers will counter AT guns by themselves.

Especially in 1v1, fuel is an important resource, and when one player has both fuels or most of the map, their first tank will come out earlier than the other player will be able to deal with it appropriately. Giving up early map control means giving up a massive fuel income