General Balance Hopes Part IV

I broke up my hopes in multiple parts to promote narrowed good discussion with less derailing.

DISCLAIMER:
Please keep the discussion around these 4 topics. Remember the fallowing:

Just because A is unfair does not make B unfair, they are two different entities

Just because A is fair does not make B fair, they are two different entities

There is asymmetric balance in this game, do not compare two units directly in similar roles
(think about everything, timing, cost, role, multi purpose, etc)

Keep anything to do with fan boys out of my thread, there is no place for it

This part is focused on the USF

So I think they did a really great job only slightly chipping away at the M15 halftrack. Maybe it could use a slight bit more toning down, but really I think that if Ostheer have a slight BP1 fuel reduction the Ostheer player should have ample time to get the proper counter in time.

The dodge truck needs to come down in effectiveness slightly

I have heard that USF Popcap is utterly broken in team games, this is a tricky situation to fix, I have no clue how to address it

Bazookas are absolutely abysmal, they need a slight damage increase or price reduction because in their current state they are not at all worth getting

I think rifles damage at long range could come down a bit

Assault engineers need a slight buff at vet one. after vet two they become awesome because of the reduced incoming accuracy bonus, but prior to them they are really only good at killing volks (sort of) and pioneers. beyond that they are solely used for demo charges

M1919s need to some down in effectiveness

Bars themselves are relatively fine

Can we please get rid of these vetted riflemen? It really screws over balance for negligible MP cost over regular ones.

I think easy 8s are fine after call ins are addressed

M10 wolverine utterly blows, its like the SU76 had a bastard child and gave it to USF

Major arty barrage comes in too late to ever be effective. You might as well always drop the fake flares because you will never hit anything that moves

Easy 8s need a slight increase in cost to better represent their performance (being too awesome)
Some of you have noticed, others have not. If rifles get addressed, Vet rifles get addressed, and Ostheer gets slightly buffed then the USF will undoubtedly be the weakest faction. Basically its only large advantage of the early game will get slightly weaker allowing Axis players to more easily mitigate the damage delt by the USF and hasten the late game where USF is moderate at best. I think the main problem with why USF struggles late game is this miss conception of "swarming" many worse tanks against a better tank which rarely happens (unless they are saving for an expensive ass call in tank). Generally you'll see maybe a one tank advantage against your opponent which as the late game progresses you need every ounce of armor advantage because Rifles start to get melted by OKW superior infantry and Ostheer better combined. arms Both axis factions have better vet rewards as well for the most part. There is a reason Axis dominates team games, and should some of these changes take place for better balance USF will need to get a buffed late game. My opinion is that the fact that the USF tanks are soo expensive in fuel and in pop cap you cannot hope to really swarm Axis tanks. Think about it: if two sides has the same amount of stuff they can take, and one side has worse stuff, they will be of course at a disadvantage. That is basically what is happening late game. There ends up being a P4 and a tiger vs what, three, at best 4 shermans? Good luck taking out that let alone if there is a pak near by. The worst part is unless you go airborne for paratroopers or M1919s USF infantry and teams melt just like Soviets against late game axis infantry unless upgraded to double bars so you pretty much have to have a tank dedicated to killing infantry.

My point is to let people know the bigger picture about the USF, I dont actually know how to really fix teh late game.

I have heard that USF Popcap is utterly broken in team games, this is a tricky situation to fix, I have no clue how to address it

Maybe it could be implemented that if population ever exceeds the value of 100, the upkeep will increase drastically, punishing the manpower income of the player.

pershing and rangers

I think easy 8s are fine after call ins are addressed

Disagree, the Easy Eight is overperforming for it's price. At 10 fuel more than a Panzer IV, it has a 35 armour advantage and a 55 penetration advantage. The E8's gun also has the overall tightest spread of all medium tanks.

M10 wolverine utterly blows, its like the SU76 had a bastard child and gave it to USF

I disagree, I actually prefer the M10 over the M36 sometimes. They're cheap, they're fast, flank speed is epic, and they have good penetration. The M36 is expensive and lacks mobility and penetration (more than M10 but not enough to cover the disadvantages imo).

I think the main problem with why USF struggles late game is this miss conception of "swarming" many worse tanks against a better tank which rarely happens (unless they are saving for an expensive ass call in tank). My opinion is that the fact that the USF tanks are soo expensive in fuel and in pop cap you cannot hope to really swarm Axis tanks. Think about it: if two sides has the same amount of stuff they can take, and one side has worse stuff, they will be of course at a disadvantage.

Agreed with this 110%, to add to it, my theory on why it isn't working:

As far as US Tank Doctrine, we used Tanks to support Infantry, and only brought Tank Destroyers in when we met Armoured Resistance. The problem with that is CoH2 is far too small scale to adequately portray that. In CoH2 the chances you'll face armoured resistance are 100% unless you're winning by a massive margin. Therefore, Tank Destroyers are always going to be the go-to option.

So what can be done? Unfortunately, I don't think much of anything can be done. The best bet imo would be allowing the 76mm Sherman to be buildable alongside the 75mm version (which would be identical to the Soviet M4C Sherman). Unfortunately, Relic is extremely stubborn about faction design structure, and will not alter it for any reason at all, and USF late-game will never be reworked.

Bazookas are absolutely abysmal, they need a slight damage increase or price reduction because in their current state they are not at all worth getting

Assault engineers need a slight buff at vet one. after vet two they become awesome because of the reduced incoming accuracy bonus, but prior to them they are really only good at killing volks (sort of) and pioneers. beyond that they are solely used for demo charges

M1919s need to some down in effectiveness

M10 wolverine utterly blows, its like the SU76 had a bastard child and gave it to USF

Major arty barrage comes in too late to ever be effective. You might as well always drop the fake flares because you will never hit anything that moves

In this thread I think these are the main points.

Bazookas are just ridiculous, if you're really lucky you might finish puma (that has engine damage already) with them. ANYTHING else will just drive away laughing.

I have to say, Assault Engineers are pretty damn good if you can manage to get close combat with them. However this might be pain in the ass. So getting them vetted is rather difficult and they might use a small buff.

M1919, doesn't need any more explanation. Quite good to say the least.

I loved your expression about M10. Exactly how I feel. I never had any luck with that, most likely I'm using it wrong way, I will give it another go.

Major arty barrage is a joke, if you checked latest generals gentlemen cast you see how the guys just starts laughing when it actually kills something. This was of course MG who didn't even bother to retreat since usually it's completely useless. So yes, this needs something FOR 120 AMMO.

Disagree, the Easy Eight is overperforming for it's price. At 10 fuel more than a Panzer IV, it has a 35 armour advantage and a 55 penetration advantage. The E8's gun also has the overall tightest spread of all medium tanks.




I disagree, I actually prefer the M10 over the M36 sometimes. They're cheap, they're fast, flank speed is epic, and they have good penetration. The M36 is expensive and lacks mobility and penetration (more than M10 but not enough to cover the disadvantages imo).

Well you may be on to something if those numbers are true, I have really looked in to them a whole lot. a slight cost adjustment in increasing the fuel and manpower slightly to match the performance.

As for your M10s I have tried many times to get them to work, they simply do not do enough damage and are even more paper thin. Pumas will kill them which is why it is simply not worth getting one because they are generally on the field for OKW and Ostheer players will just ignore it. At taht point you are better off saving fuel for a regular sherman.

I have had great success once or twice. Games I had superb micro with my Stuart and it lived quite long, I would rush in on a flank and use the stun rounds while the M10 drives behind the tank. It works on medium armor because they cannot retaliate in time to do anything about it. Problem is that both tanks are paper thin and any sign of units with fausts or AT you'll loose either the stuart or the M10

Regarding E8s, they need to match T34-85s CP requirements and at the moment, have a little increase in fuel/mp. LITTLE.

As for your M10s I have tried many times to get them to work, they simply do not do enough damage and are even more paper thin. Pumas will kill them which is why it is simply not worth getting one because they are generally on the field for OKW and Ostheer players will just ignore it. At taht point you are better off saving fuel for a regular sherman.

I may have been lucky in the times I used them, but I liked them. In combination with Bazookas (1 BAR, 1 Bazooka) I was able to flank and destroy a lightly supported (though over-extended) Jagdtiger, something I would not have been able to do if I'd gone with the M36's. Their penetration isn't much lower and the high mobility and faster reload makes up for the lack of damage per-shot.

Regarding E8s, they need to match T34-85s CP requirements and at the moment, have a little increase in fuel/mp. LITTLE.

145 - 150 Fuel would be most fitting for the Easy Eight. You're getting a tank that can single-handedly take on any other Medium Tank, only Heavy Tanks and Tank Hunters pose a significant threat.

145 - 150 Fuel would be most fitting for the Easy Eight. You're getting a tank that can single-handedly take on any other Medium Tank, only Heavy Tanks and Tank Hunters pose a significant threat.

I couldn't disagree more.

Pak wall ends games for usf. reketen eats away at USF tanks. Every volk squad (okw) can get shreks. U can get mines,. panther beats ALL usf armor in a 1v1 ,. well micros puma is a huge threat to EZ8. You can call heavies and super heavies as axis.

I agree with relic that the EZ8 is working as intended. And support there plans to tie all call-ins to tech cost. but increasing its cost. I DONT AGREE WITH.

For crying out loud usf doesnt even have a heavy tank.

Either give usf a heavy tank. or make zooks usefull.

As for infantry. we need more commanders with elite infantry. or more non-doc infantry variety.