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CoH2 Beta findings

10 Apr 2013, 21:57 PM
#1
avatar of Purlictor

Posts: 393

I've played a fair bit of the beta, and thought I'd share my thoughts on balance/gameplay.


! Wall of text !

I've added my proposed changes/solutions like this:

* balance change

0.5 Interface

Right now, the interface is pretty bad. CoH1 had all the resources next to the minimap (where you're looking most of the time), had precise and obvious alerts (unit suppressed/ sniped) and the VPs were a lot more obvious. A lot of this has been changed for no apparent reason.

1. Blizzards.

I've actually started to like this mechanic in some situations. There is however the problem that there is so little warning given that you can't really plan your strategy around it. If you lost an engagement, have retreated a large part of your forces and then the blizzard message appears, you're going to have a horrible time getting back on the field.

* Give blizzards a 2-3 minute warning before hand, and maybe make them last a bit shorter. I also wouldn't mind having units move a bit faster near woods/buildings (would be quite interesting, since it would be realistic to have the blizzard's wind broken by trees and buildings) during the storm.

2. Maps & Resources.

2.1 Maps
My main gripe is the lack of good 1v1 maps. The winter map is decent (its name eludes me atm. :p), but accessing the top part of the map is awkward because of a large amount of impassable terrain.

Pripyat (the summer 1v1/2v2 map) is terrible: The middle has 2 choke points and access to parts of the maps has large amounts of water on it. Lots of red cover, especially water, and bridges in the middle have never made for a good map.

* Open up access ways from the middle to the top of the map (winter 1v1 map), remove a lot of the water from Pripyat and open up flanking routes through the middle (summer 1v1 map).


The maps also seem larger, which reduces the amount of combat, thus making teching a lot quicker. I can't say the new resource system is superior to the old one (because it isn't), but it does the trick.

2.2 OPs
Fuel and ammo OPs might not really be worth it though (+3/+5 iirc).

* Make OPs actually provide more resources and make them a worthwhile investment.

2.3 Upkpeep
As far as I know, there is a set population count over which you do not pay upkeep, then pay a set amount of mp/min for every point of population you surpass this limit with.

This makes it extremely easy to make comebacks and makes teching very fast in the early game (you'll be at 300/min almost all the time). It also means that your upkeep drops significantly after only a few higher tier units. Assuming the CoH1 mechanic won't come back:

* Reducing the MP/min penalty for every point of population should make sure your income doesn't drop down to +-150mp/min in almost every 2v2+ game you play.

3. T1 combat

3.1 flamers
Part of the problem with flamers was not only that they did so much damage, but conscripts, pios and grens seem to do a lot less damage than rifles/volks in vCoH. This is especially the case with conscripts, who seem to do very little damage to flanked MGs.

Not sure if they really need a change after the latest patch nerf and a possible conscript damage buff.

3.2 conscripts
As I mentioned before, they seem to do very little damage. Right now, they're pretty much a molotov/AT nade delivery system, while being able to flank unsopported MGs in the early game with oorah!

* Increase their firepower to slightly less than rifleman standards. (they are afterall a bit cheaper)

3.3 MGs.
MGs are considerably more powerful than those in CoH1. They absolutely shred soviet infantry, can suppress squads in green cover, are a lot more survivable (no snipers/BARs, conscripts do less damage than rifles), can manually target different squads a lot easier (the turn speed seems to be faster and in vCoH this required the player to wait for the burst to finish before changing the target) and can switch windows quicker.

* Make them cost slightly more and reduce the damage dealt, especially at long range and to units in buildings.

3.4 Engie/pio combat.
Russian combat engineers seem to beat pioneers at every range. While one can argue that engineers are more expensive, I think the pioneers should beat engies at close range. This brings back the whole engie/pio dynamic of CoH1 and makes unit placement a lot more important, rather than just stalling with your pios or having to fall back from an unwinnable fight.

* Buff pioneer close range damage.

3.5 Russian weapon crews.
The 6-man mechanic is just awkward. It makes flanking a weapon crew a whole lot less effective for the Germans to do, since a mortar/ATG crew can actually fight off a pio team and do considerable damage to even a gren squad. It also unbalances things mortar v. mortar wise, since now the wehr mortar needs to be a lot more powerful to make sure mortar wars aren't completely lopsided.

* Drop the weapon crew down to 4 men. This still makes them larger than their axis counterparts, and still lets conscripts use their merge ability to full effect. Reduce the pak and wehr mortar to about the same damage as the russian field gun/ mortar.

3.6 Grenades & Deep snow
Simply put, fighting in deep snow (thinking about the left hand fuel on Moscow Outskirts in particular, where you can't really not be in deep snow) makes nades undodgeable.

* Not sure. Make units taking fire move at a faster pace (relative to the usual slow through snow speed), but have horrible moving accuracy?

3.7 Grenadier pricing
Grenadiers seem to be superior to conscripts in almost every way. Their riflegrenade is fine for an ability you can't really dodge.

* Grenadier cost to 300MP

3.8 AT grenades/fausts
Considerable range, undodgeable, instant crit? I'll take that.
This really slows down armor battles to a long range slugfest, and really needs to be changed.
Solution:
Fausts are the same as in vCoH, AT nades have a shorter range but do still cause criticals (any ideas on the accuracy?)

3.9 Mines.
Soviet mines do massive damage, a lot more than in CoH1 (often insta-killing squads). Reverting them to vCoH damage should be fine.

3.10 Penal legion
Why is the scum of the Soviet army equipped with SVT-40s? :p

4. Teching.

Teching seems extremely quick in the game. Consider, for instance, the speed at which one can get AT guns as russians: In vCoH, it's rax->SY->MP. Now, all one has to do is purchase T2.

* An idea for the soviets would be to have building upgrades, like the PE T2/T3/T4 upgrades, that unlock the more powerful units in the tier. Something like: T1 upgrade - sniper team, T2 upgrade - field gun, T3 upgr. - T34/76 & T34/85, T4. upgr. - SU-85.
This would obviously mean the buildings themselves would be a lot cheaper fuel wise, especially T3. This should make the fast T70 a viable alternative to the T34 once T3 is up.

As for the Axis, a simple fuel increase might be all that is needed.


Another small issue would be the fact that there is no reasonto get engineers over conscripts in the early game: Perhaps add in a small upgrade at the HQ?

5. (Light) Vehicles

5.1 Wehr flamer haltrack.
This thing comes very early and can instagib whole squads. If the AT nade range gets nerfed, and T2 requires an upgrade before being able to produce the field gun, it might become even more powerful.

* Nerfing the damage output considerably and requiring a T3 escalation should do the trick.

5.2 Scout cars.
These units are pretty gimmicky at the moment. They cost almost nothing, yet go down extremely quickly, mainly due to the fast teching to field guns and very powerful AT nades/fausts.

* Making them cost more manpower but upping their damage could make them a more 'stable' unit, considering the AT nade/faust nerf. The Soviet scout car is still a strange unit, being extremely powerful if your opponent doesn't have a faust, yet useless once he does (I'm thinking of the flamer-in-scoutcar combo). They're also teched later than jeeps, so have a lot less of an early gaming impact. Snipers and flamers shooting out of the scout car is really just a gimmick and shouldn't be in the game.

6. Tanks.
Tank combat on the whole seems to be a lot slower than in vCoH or the alpha. I believe they reduced most tank damage by 33%, which really dulls down the armor battles and makes flanking a lot less important.

* Reverting the 33% damage nerf should go a long way to make armor combat a lot more dynamic

6.1 Stugs.
The unit of choice for tank combat, this tank has very good health, armor, damage ( to tanks) and range.

* With its only real weakness, AT nades, being nerfed, I think a price increase and a health decrease is warranted for this unit (something like, health from 675 to 575, range from 60 to 50, cost from 300/50 to 340/50)

Getting late, still need to do:
P4s (cost too much), brummbar (instagibs infantry), IS2 (main gun sucks), panthers (a bit too cheap), katushyas (inaccurate), paks (very powerful), PGs (best anti-inf + schrecks? yes please) and probably more.

Hope you enjoy it :D
11 Apr 2013, 00:45 AM
#2
avatar of RagingJenni

Posts: 486

I also wouldn't mind having units move a bit faster near woods/buildings (would be quite interesting, since it would be realistic to have the blizzard's wind broken by trees and buildings) during the storm.


Trees doesn't really break wind (ha-ha) like that though, esp not the kind of winds depicted in the game. Houses make perfect sense tho if they made it so you could clearly see which side the blizzard is coming from. (Now it looks a bit jumbled together, or maybe that's just my laptop struggling)
11 Apr 2013, 01:23 AM
#3
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

3.6 Grenades & Deep snow
Simply put, fighting in deep snow (thinking about the left hand fuel on Moscow Outskirts in particular, where you can't really not be in deep snow) makes nades undodgeable.


I think a good solution to this would be that if the nade is thrown, it will land in deep snow and snow makes the blast radious smaller. Makes sense me thinks.
11 Apr 2013, 01:33 AM
#4
avatar of Inverse
Coder Red Badge

Posts: 1679 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2013, 01:23 AMSpanky
3.6 Grenades & Deep snow
Simply put, fighting in deep snow (thinking about the left hand fuel on Moscow Outskirts in particular, where you can't really not be in deep snow) makes nades undodgeable.


I think a good solution to this would be that if the nade is thrown, it will land in deep snow and snow makes the blast radious smaller. Makes sense me thinks.

That would be an interesting compromise. That way you could put a squad in deep snow, knowing you won't be able to dodge a grenade but also that the grenade won't do as much damage, or you could stay out of deep snow and be able to dodge grenades, but take a lot of damage if you screw up.

Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to dodge grenades right now regardless of where your units are standing.
11 Apr 2013, 01:40 AM
#5
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164

PLS DONT NERF MY BRUMMBÄRSSSS!!!!11111oneoneoneeleven

they already nerfbuffed them enough from alpha... (nerfing penetration, buffing damage, yay!)

in alpha, brummbär and panther had same damage and penetration :-) now panther has more pen but less dmg... :-/
11 Apr 2013, 04:21 AM
#6
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

i think the dmage systme is coh is way out of wack thats what most of these problme speople are having is from. things can almost die instantly or stay there forever. :D/:(
11 Apr 2013, 05:33 AM
#7
avatar of CrackBarbie

Posts: 182

Crits have to be far more consistent for the game to be both enjoyable and competitive. Coh1 kinda of had it right (despite being way too inconsistant), and coh2 has it completely wrong. The type of critical should always be determined by the health and the side of the vehicle that was hit. For example, frontal penetrations should only ever wield destroyed guns, impaired visibility and stunned crew memebers, whereas engine damage, exhaust damage, and engine failure should only result from rear penerations. Immobilization should be reserved for very low health vehicles.
11 Apr 2013, 05:42 AM
#8
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

I don't know. I certainly don't find the 60 seconds prior to Blizzard to be a small amount of time. As I stated in Cr4wlers post in the Sega forums, I think it is mainly lack of gameplay awareness on our part for now. We are simply not used to Blizzards yet.

They are far from perfect, particularly their random duration can mess things up in a VP battle (this is my biggest gripe so far), but we also need to develop discipline and habit. People bunching up around bonfires are a death trap, for instance. I've found mixed use of buildings and custom bonfires much more beneficial in the long run.
11 Apr 2013, 10:15 AM
#9
avatar of RagingJenni

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2013, 01:23 AMSpanky
3.6 Grenades & Deep snow
Simply put, fighting in deep snow (thinking about the left hand fuel on Moscow Outskirts in particular, where you can't really not be in deep snow) makes nades undodgeable.



Both realistic and a way to balance them out. Wp *Applauds* :D
11 Apr 2013, 20:44 PM
#10
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6

about upkeep cost....
0-25 - is free
26-75 - each pop costs 4 manpower, so your min income would be like 99
76-100 - is free

too bad that Relic stoles bad ideas from bad games like SpamCraft and WankCraft
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