My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

Improving cons by giving them something more,

Not..... NOT... giving them something and taking something else in return.

I have no problem keeping Cons alive and viable mid to late game. They are fine the way they are.

Guy keeps attacking me. Thats hardly my fault or responsibility.

I've had civil and constructive discussions with numerous posters here on various proposals, as well as myself contributing a very lengthy and considered Penal proposal too here as a means to help alleviate the gap left in Sov infantry structure around Cons.



Back to topic and ignoring the hyperbole:

What is your specific and exact proposal for how you would change Cons?

Sure, it's not your fault.

Anyway, my proposal is to either decrease their reinforce cost when T3/t4 is built (to 12-15ish MP) if they get to keep the same stats. Still cost 240 to build one from scratch, but the ones you already have alive are now economically much less of a burden. Upkeep reduction could also be a possibility.

If their stats get to change rather than their price, it'd rather buff their veterancy than give them weapon upgrades. In addition to their existing veterancy, maybe give them 10% received accuracy and 10% increased accuracy, spread over their vet. I'd favor increased accuracy at vet 1 and received accuracy at vet 3 myself, but it could be the other way around. So they still scale less than grens, but get slightly better veterancy to compensate.

Anyway, my proposal is to decrease their reinforce cost when T3/t4 is built (to 12-15ish MP)

I figure 15 sounds doable. Sort of like every 4th man for free, as compared to now.

I'd favor increased accuracy at vet 1 and received accuracy at vet 3 myself, but it could be the other way around. So they still scale less than grens, but get slightly better veterancy to compensate.

This I don't agree with.
Would mean that at V1 they already beat vanilla V1 Grens and hurt Support Teams harder than now.

Furthermore, if scaling is tied to Vet, it basically means that Cons scale for free, whereas Grens for example have to pay to scale and remain competitive (and they would already be uncompetitive at V1 without LMG).

It'd be cool if the merge ability worked by having as many conscripts available in a squad, up to five/down to one, automatically merge with the nearest squad instead of being a targeted ability that also merges your unit selection.

Targeting merge squad by squad is tedious and time consuming, but if the ability could be hit just like you would reinforce to feed squad members to nearby units, the whole soviet faction would be in a better position for maintaining a balanced game, especially as conscripts are concerned.

I figure 15 sounds doable. Sort of like every 4th man for free, as compared to now.



This I don't agree with.
Would mean that at V1 they already beat vanilla V1 Grens and hurt Support Teams harder than now.

Furthermore, if scaling is tied to Vet, it basically means that Cons scale for free, whereas Grens for example have to pay to scale and remain competitive (and they would already be uncompetitive at V1 without LMG).

So? Volks get 50% received accuracy at max vet (which they attain pretty fast), for ''free'', while being cheaper than conscripts to boot. Veterancy isn't free, it rewards unit preservation.

At worst, make the 10% additional accuracy increase at vet 2. By this time, grens will have LMGs if the game is even close to contested, and LMGs still easily beat the new concscript veterancy. But at least it's going to be slightly more of a contest, and concripts that reach vet 3 will be able to take a bit more hurt while serving as punching bags and AT nade dispensers.

One post invised at poster's request.

I think this topic has been turned into a wish list.

There is a major flaw with the proposition of native weapon upgrade.
Giving Cons PPSH will make PPSH doctrines irrelevant.
Giving them DK-28 will basically turn them into Guards.

The only possible adjustment that can be made is through veterancy system but that's only if Relic is willing to do so and that's highly unlikely to happened when you consider their statements as it seems they are happy with Cons as they are right now.

I think this topic has been turned into a wish list.

There is a major flaw with the proposition of native weapon upgrade.
Giving Cons PPSH will make PPSH doctrines irrelevant.
Giving them DK-28 will basically turn them into Guards.

The only possible adjustment that can be made is through veterancy system but that's only if Relic is willing to do so and that's highly unlikely to happened when you consider their statements as it seems they are happy with Cons as they are right now.

not if we demand hard enough! OOOOOOOOORAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think this topic has been turned into a wish list.

There is a major flaw with the proposition of native weapon upgrade.
Giving Cons PPSH will make PPSH doctrines irrelevant.
Giving them DK-28 will basically turn them into Guards.

The only possible adjustment that can be made is through veterancy system but that's only if Relic is willing to do so and that's highly unlikely to happened when you consider their statements as it seems they are happy with Cons as they are right now.

In the words of the Penal Squad leader, if you aren't dying you aren't trying .

But yeah, increasingly I think a boost to their veterancy is the way to go. Would also go into their flavor of being untrained conscripts turned into badass soldiers by the rigors of combat.

In the words of the Penal Squad leader, if you aren't dying you aren't trying .

But yeah, increasingly I think a boost to their veterancy is the way to go. Would also go into their flavor of being untrained conscripts turned into badass soldiers by the rigors of combat.

yes I feel vet is the safest way to go without having relic add new buildings, abilities, upgrades etc.

So? Volks get 50% received accuracy at max vet (which they attain pretty fast), for ''free'', while being cheaper than conscripts to boot. Veterancy isn't free, it rewards unit preservation.

At worst, make the 10% additional accuracy increase at vet 2. By this time, grens will have LMGs if the game is even close to contested, and LMGs still easily beat the new concscript veterancy. But at least it's going to be slightly more of a contest, and concripts that reach vet 3 will be able to take a bit more hurt while serving as punching bags and AT nade dispensers.

As Ive pointed out, Cons and Grens are currently pegged to each other in terms of Vet stats.
They are identical.

Upsetting that with a Vet stat change would have a chain effect requiring someting be changed on Gren Vet stats as well.

Ultimately it would result, as I pointed out, in Cons scaling for free, alongside their utility, whereas Grens would be even more shoehorned into having to invest in LMGs, at cost, in order to stay competetive. It forces even more LMG Gren centric builds than is alreasy the case.

Consider a lategame situation with say 3Cons and 3 Grens, all at V3, the Cons would be scaling for free, as well as having Oorah/Merge, whereas the Grens would have had to pay 180Muni total just not to lose to them in DPS (let alone still lacking Oorah or Merge equivalents). This ontop of having 2men less worth of soak vs other battlefield units in a game stage where these predominate.

And when did the discussion turn to buffing Cons already at V1-V2 stages in the match?
I thought this was about V3 period of lategame?

As Ive pointed out, Cons and Grens are currently pegged to each other in terms of Vet stats.
They are identical.

Upsetting that with a Vet stat change would have a chain effect requiring someting be changed on Gren Vet stats as well.

Ultimately it would result, as I pointed out, in Cons scaling for free, alongside their utility, whereas Grens would be even more shoehorned into having to invest in LMGs, at cost, in order to stay competetive. It forces even more LMG Gren centric builds than is alreasy the case.

Consider a lategame situation with say 3Cons and 3 Grens, all at V3, the Cons would be scaling for free, as well as having Oorah/Merge, whereas the Grens would have had to pay 180Muni total just not to lose to them in DPS (let alone still lacking Oorah or Merge equivalents).

And when did the discussion turn to buffing Cons already at V1-V2 stages in the match?
I thought this was about V3 period of lategame?

One thing to note, veterancy isin't free. Veterancy gets paid for in blood.

One thing to note, veterancy isin't free. Veterancy gets paid for in blood.

Yes.

Unfortunately, and equally notably, that is however not true of Muni based upgrades.

As Ive pointed out, Cons and Grens are currently pegged to each other in terms of Vet stats.
They are identical.

Upsetting that with a Vet stat change would have a chain effect requiring someting be changed on Gren Vet stats as well.

Ultimately it would result, as I pointed out, in Cons scaling for free, alongside their utility, whereas Grens would be even more shoehorned into having to invest in LMGs, at cost, in order to stay competetive. It forces even more LMG Gren centric builds than is alreasy the case.

Consider a lategame situation with say 3Cons and 3 Grens, all at V3, the Cons would be scaling for free, as well as having Oorah/Merge, whereas the Grens would have had to pay 180Muni total just not to lose to them in DPS (let alone still lacking Oorah or Merge equivalents). This ontop of having 2men less worth of soak vs other battlefield units in a game stage where these predominate.

And when did the discussion turn to buffing Cons already at V1-V2 stages in the match?
I thought this was about V3 period of lategame?

I can also create a situation. 3 vet 0 conscripts vs 3 vet 0 grens with LMG. The conscripts get stomped. Or 3 vet 3 conscripts with the new vet vs 3 vet 3 LMG grens. Conscripts get stomped slightly less. Over the course of a game, 180 ammo is not a lot, certainly easier to accumulate than 3 vet 3 conscripts squads that have piss poor damage. that's for damn sure.

Vet is not free, you earn it in battle and with unit preservation.

Besides, unless you dominate your oppononent, vet 2 conscripts just don't happen before LMGs start hitting the field. Grens will still have the initiative, it's just that conscripts have a bit more of a fighting chance if they reach higher veterancy.

And, as several people have said time and again, the matchup is currently not balanced. There is no requirement to buff grens if we buff conscripts, just like there is, say, no requirement to buff the Easy Eight if we buff the Panther. It's not a convincing argument.

Why are you bringing vet 0 units into a discussion centered on, in your own words, the scaling of Cons in lategame? Wth does a V0 comparison have to do with any of this?

180 Muni is a TON of mines and abilities worth.
While the Ost player is forced to upgrade to LMGs to remain competetive in your Vet change proposal, Sov can have placed 180 Muni worth of Mines and abilities by that point.

Furthermore Cons are EASIER to retain, than Grens, due to the 2man extra soak.
This is just an indisputable fact.

Several people have also stated that Cons are fine. Many also have pointed at Penals as the missing link for buffing, rather than Cons. So your argument on public opinion to reinforce your specific proposal, doesnt fly. Furthermore rhe whole point of discussion is to explore and express opinions, not to try and claim yours is right simply because x number happen to agree with you, whilst ignoring that another x number infact disagree with you.

For most of the games history, Cons and Grens had different Vet stats.
This was finally harmonised for VERY GOOD reasons (even though it reduced an element of asymmetric balance into basically a copy/paste) nd it was a long road getting there.
Then came WFA, and yes, it might be time to dissassociate the Con/Gren Vet benchmark from each other again, but it will have to be done reciprocally.

Cons and Grens ARE currently balanced, in an asymmetric sense.
Stat and Vet wise they are equivalents towards each other.
Cons carry the 6man, cheaper reinforce and 2 core ability advantage right from the start, and maintain it throughout.
Grens, instead, have the LMG upgrade, which has solely a DPS function.
Yes, the Grens pull ahead in DPS when the player invests 60Muni, but thats all they have, and entailed in the cost.

The intent was never to shut down opposition. Merely to showcase a point I made. For a person who whines again and again that people misinterpret your words, you sure like doing the same to others.

Vet 0 comparison is to underline the difference between veterancy and upgrades. Veterancy is paid for in blood and accumulated over time, upgrades are a straight up power boost you pay once for, on top of veterancy. For that reason, the LMG42 upgrade is better than slightly boosted veterancy, and as soon as they have it the grens will still dominate conscripts, and can contend with any Allied infantry save Paras and Shocks. You cannot seriously claim the vet changes will make conscripts competitive by themselves, LMG grens will still be just better, and again I say that as someone who plays both factions a lot.

And about Ostheer having to sink ammo to get their LMGs, well isn't that the assymetric balance you're fond of? Conscripts have to sink 300 mp 30 fuel to get grenades and AT nades, while the grens obtain grenades along their natural teching and faust right out of the gate. They also sink ammo in Oooorah, which at 10 a pop can't be spammed either. They also sink more manpower via losing more men almost every single time. So that 180 ammo ''deficit'' is not exactly crippling if it gives you an extremely solid core infantry while your enemy either has to out-micro you or invest in elite infantry.

The intent was never to shut down opposition. Merely to showcase a point I made. For a person who whines again and again that people misinterpret your words, you sure like doing the same to others.

As I said. For every person you claim agrees with you, and therefore supposedly strengthens your argument, I can point out another who does not. Its a pointless argument to even raise as it doesn't "showcase a point I made" in the least. Technically its called "argumentum ad publicum", and is a logical fallacy.

Vet 0 comparison is to underline the difference between veterancy and upgrades. Veterancy is paid for in blood and accumulated over time, upgrades are a straight up power boost you pay once for, on top of veterancy. For that reason, the LMG42 upgrade is better than slightly boosted veterancy, and as soon as they have it the grens will still dominate conscripts, and can contend with any Allied infantry save Paras and Shocks. You cannot seriously claim the vet changes will make conscripts competitive by themselves, LMG grens will still be just better, and again I say that as someone who plays both factions a lot.

A V0 comparison is completely irrelevant in a discussion focused on Cons scaling in lategame.
Muni is also accumalated over time, and is a finite resource. What you spend on one thing, means you cannot spend on another. Vet however is a resource that accumalates per unit, independantly. You completely missed the key point in my previous post, which was that according to your proposal, Grens would be FORCED to get LMGs for 60 munis, just to compete with equally vetted Cons. So yes, a Vet change, especially as ridiculously early as you proposed it, already at V1, would categorically make Cons more competitive than Grens, UNLESS they spend the 60 munis on LMG, which the Sov player can instead have invested elsewhere ONTOP of the Cons vetting normally to a better result than the Grens, unless he spends that 60 specifically on Grens. As I said, your proposal categorically forces even more LMG Gren play. If they don't upgrade at that cost, they will LOSE to naturally Vetted Cons.

LMG Grens are better DPS than Cons BECAUSE they have 60munis invested on them.
Wtf else would be the point of paying 60munis otherwise?

Reciprocally Cons have 6man, cheaper reinforce and 2 native abilities which provide utility right from the start.

And about Ostheer having to sink ammo to get their LMGs, well isn't that the assymetric balance you're fond of? Conscripts have to sink 300 mp 30 fuel to get grenades and AT nades, while the grens obtain grenades along their natural teching and faust right out of the gate. They also sink ammo in Oooorah, which at 10 a pop can't be spammed either. They also sink more manpower via losing more men almost every single time. So that 180 ammo ''deficit'' is not exactly crippling if it gives you an extremely solid core infantry while your enemy either has to out-micro you or invest in elite infantry.

Ost is FORCED to progress in a linear tier direction, whereas Sov can choose.
Meaning Ost is FORCED to sink that MP/Fuel in teching through every stage, whereas Sov is not.
That is asymmetric balance.
I'm certainly open to discussing reduction on ATNade or Molotov purchase costs, but I dont think youll get much leverage with Relic on that.
As to Cons having more manpower loss, thats ONLY true vs LMG Grens (who have spent 60Munis), for that stage of the game. That's why they are cheaper, and I already said I think your other alternative of reducing Con reinforce to 15MP after building T3/4 could be worth consideration.
As to your trying to claim Oorah as a significant Muni sink at 10, whereas in your previous post and here again, you tried to claim that 180Muni isn't much. Thats pretty funny, though utterly contradictory.

Now can we get back to discussing the actual topic, which is lategame scaling of Cons (meaning V3)?

I think this topic has been turned into a wish list.

There is a major flaw with the proposition of native weapon upgrade.
Giving Cons PPSH will make PPSH doctrines irrelevant.
Giving them DK-28 will basically turn them into Guards.

The only possible adjustment that can be made is through veterancy system but that's only if Relic is willing to do so and that's highly unlikely to happened when you consider their statements as it seems they are happy with Cons as they are right now.

No

The same weapon on different squads already perform differently, IE: Rifleman m1919s are slightly worse than Paratrooper's m1919s

Also, giving them a Dp-28 does by no stretch "turn them into guards". They have significantly weaker rifle dps, would only have 1 dp, and don't have those good grenades.

Imho, cons must be buffed with non doctrinal weapons for better playing at mid and early game. But I think, Relic will not do it.