US M3 Half Track

I made a post about this on the official Relic forums, but I didn't really get any meaningful responses so I'm going to copy paste it here and add a bit to it.

I'm referring to the M3 Half Track Assault in the Mechanized Company commander. The problem with this unit is that it is far too flimsy, only having 200hp. The other reinforcement halftracks for wehr and soviets both have 320hp, although for the sake of this argument I will be mainly comparing it to the soviet m5 halftrack since they have to go up against the same enemies. On coh2stats the M3's cost is listed as 270mp and 35 fuel, but really it's 240mp and 35 fuel when you subtract the 280mp cost of the assault engineers that come with it (I'm pretty sure the ability cost is 520mp and 35 fuel). The M5 halftrack costs 270mp and 30 fuel, so very close to the same (more mp, less fuel).

So then why does the M3 only get 200hp? Is it faster? Nope, the M5 is actually faster (6.8 vs 7.0). It doesn't get any upgrades whatsoever, while the M5 gets the excellent quad mount. It has significantly less armor, the M3 has 5.4 front and 4.2 rear, whereas the M5 has 28.5(!) front and 20 rear; that's more than a puma. There's also the fact that replacing and M3 requires you to purchase an assault engineer with it. The only advantage the M3 has over the M5 is that 5 men can shoot out of the back instead of 4. If there's something else I'm missing please let me know but I can't see any reason the M3 should have such low health.

Also just a quick mention of the WM 251 half track. It's better than the M3 in every way except that garrisoned troops can't fire out of it. It is also quite a bit cheaper (200mp, 30f).

If you're looking up the stats on coh2stats, be sure to click the one that says 'm3_halftrack_assault_mp'. The other M3 Half track, listed as 'm3_halftrack_mp'(which isn't used in game), has 320 hp and 8.4/4.2 armor. It's other stats are different too, but these are the kind of health/armor stats I think are more appropriate for a unit of it's cost and function, and it still has less armor than the 251. Maybe relic is already doing some internal testing on the matter.

Lastly, woo first post on these forums. Hi everyone!

welcome!

id be careful about comparing its armor the the m5. personally, i think the m5 has way too much armor for a ht. its got far more than any other ht. id rather see the m5 brought down rather than the other hts buffed. besides, an upgraded m5 isnt even threatened by infantry, so its armor doesnt matter too much. but thats a topic for another thread.

back to the m3, its already able to squad wipe with ease as it is now. the assault engineers have very high dps, but require you to get close. add a lt or cpt (or even both) and its extremely strong. if you gave it armor like the m5, itd be completely broken. instead id rather see its hp get buffed and its armor brought up to the german hts, so its a little less vulnerable to small arms.

Raising its health is actually what I would want most. I think that more than anything would make this a reliable unit.

As for the armor, a slight buff would be nice, and the one I mentioned leaves it as still having the lowest armor of any half track. I don't really think it has that high of a squad wipe potential. Yeah if it's ignored it can, but it's no worse than a soviet M3 scout car with shocks in it, since it has the exact same health + armor. Plus it's not available until 3CP so there are more than enough counters available at that point.

american squads are able to do a lot more dps than a shock squad, especially if you use squads like a lieutenant. that will give them higher dps at longer range, which makes it a lot easier to wipe squads.

with just the basic assault engis in it, i agree with you.

woo first post on these forums. Hi everyone!

Welcome to coh2.org

I wanted to add a couple more things to this, one is a mention of the German mechanized assault callins. I guess the Pgren one is more common since the mechanized assault doctrine sees a lot of use. Even the half track is more durable, faster, and cheaper, although it can't reinforce. However, the Pgrens inside to have excellent squad wipe potential since the half track can quickly chase down and demolish retreating squads, especially if the opponent was unprepared for it.

That also brings me to my second though, which may be a topic for another thread but... the assault engineers that you're forced to get with the M3. I would honestly rather have the pgrens, even though a lot of players don't seem to think those are worth it right now. The US assault engineers are a 4 man squad that costs 280mp and what do you really get for it? Sure they can repair and build some stuff, but so can rear echelons, and they're cheap as dirt. They don't have any abilities that are used in combat, such as a grenade, smoke, or a sprint. Does anyone know if they have an accuracy received modifier? That would be one thing that would make them somewhat worth using, but otherwise they are kind of lackluster.

That also brings me to my second though, which may be a topic for another thread but... the assault engineers that you're forced to get with the M3. I would honestly rather have the pgrens, even though a lot of players don't seem to think those are worth it right now. The US assault engineers are a 4 man squad that costs 280mp and what do you really get for it? Sure they can repair and build some stuff, but so can rear echelons, and they're cheap as dirt. They don't have any abilities that are used in combat, such as a grenade, smoke, or a sprint. Does anyone know if they have an accuracy received modifier? That would be one thing that would make them somewhat worth using, but otherwise they are kind of lackluster.

They have superb close range damage- as much as an assgren squad- and more importantly, they can lay demo charges which are probably the best infantry based squad wipers currently. Just having a squad around to demo houses and points is very handy.

They have superb close range damage- as much as an assgren squad- and more importantly, they can lay demo charges which are probably the best infantry based squad wipers currently. Just having a squad around to demo houses and points is very handy.

It's true that they can lay demo charges, but I don't think that would really make them worth the price, and it doesn't help them in an actual fight. Soviet combat engineers can lay demo charges too, and they only cost 170mp. Usually units are priced based on their combat effectiveness. Plus, assault engineers get get out dps'd at all ranges by pgrens (and assault pioneers, did you know asspios out dps pgrens?). And while their dps is slightly higher than assgrens, they don't have any combat abilities, like assgren grenades and sprint, and have a smaller squad size.

It's true that they can lay demo charges, but I don't think that would really make them worth the price, and it doesn't help them in an actual fight. Soviet combat engineers can lay demo charges too, and they only cost 170mp. Usually units are priced based on their combat effectiveness. Plus, assault engineers get get out dps'd at all ranges by pgrens (and assault pioneers, did you know asspios out dps pgrens?). And while their dps is slightly higher than assgrens, they don't have any combat abilities, like assgren grenades and sprint, and have a smaller squad size.

I'm afraid I still disagree. The demo charge ability alone makes them worth the cost on urban maps. The fact that Soviet engineers can is irrelevant, because, well, it's another faction. Neither German faction can lay demo charges, and that doesn't affect assengies either. Sturmpioneers have nearly the same DPS as pgrens, but slightly, slightly less at alll ranges so you're incorrect there. Assgren grenades are bad against stuff outside of buildings and cost a bunch, whereas assault engines get flamers, which allow them to beat pgrens or sturmpios more often than not. Sprint is nice, but assgrens don't maintain utility into late game because LMG grens are so good and they don't have noncombat use... whereas the engineers can lay demos, repair, and degarrison.

i think he meant sturm pios, not assault grens.

but assault engineers are actually extremely strong. the difference is they use smgs, not assault rifles. that gives pgrens/sturm pios the range advantage. at close range, assault engineer weapons actually have higher dps than shocks. shocks just have more of them. if they have any problems, its their durability/difficulty closing ground. both of these issues are negated by the m3 ht.

as i said before, if you want to add a little more long range dps, throw a lt in with the assault engineers and the ht will just melt squads.

I did mean sturmpios and not assault pios/grens. My mistake. Also pgrens do outdps sturmpios, I misread some info there. However, pgrens and sturm pios both have higher close range dps than ass engies (pgrens have 59, sturmpios have 57, and ass engies have 53, and just for fun, shocks have 71). Obviously this means the engies get completely beaten at longer ranges.

I feel like we've gone full circle now though, because using the m3 to close ground for the engies is dangerous because of how flimsy the m3 is. 2 shrecks will destroy it, 1 shreck will bring it low enough to be finished off by some small arms fire. Also something you have to remember about the assault engineers is that they are also available to the armored company commander which doesn't have half tracks. So you can't really base the assault engineer's effectiveness off its synergy with the m3.

Overall I would like to say that I don't think assault engineers are underperforming that bad, not like the m3 is, but it seems like after getting 1 for the utility, I'd rather have more riflemen.

well considering this is an m3 thread, i was still talking about mechanized. of course you dont use a ht against AT squads. depending on where the rest of the german army is, you could charge a gren squad and absorb the faust though. a quick repair with the crew and assault engis makes it fairly low risk. if youre playing against volks and sturms, its even better.

i agree theyre not strong enough to replace rifles, but i think thats a good thing. for their price and 0 cps, they cant really be buffed to be more like shocks. they can still be used very effectively on building maps because they can surprise units around corners and can also get flamers.

The m3 is still ridiculously fragile, especially for its fuel cost.