JagdPanzer IV vs SU85

Guys, can someone explain me which tank destroyer outclass the other one and why?

I mean, timing, reload, armor, speed, vision, damage, pathing, faction it is in..

I compared the two a little while ago;

The Jagdpanzer IV has 230 armor compared to the SU-85's 140.

The Jagdpanzer IV has a target size of 17 compared to the SU-85's 22. This means it is easier to hit the SU-85.

The Jagdpanzer IV has more accuracy; particularly at long range. (JP4: .04 vs SU-85: .025; almost double at long range)

Both tanks have comparable speeds and penetration. JPIV avg penetration: 185, SU-85: 190

The Jagdpanzer 4 reload: 4.3-5.2 vs SU-85: 3.8-4.2. SU-85 fires about ~19% faster.

Jagdpanzer 4 is far better but it is more expensive. Jagdpanzer 4 has some really great veterancy too:

Jagdpanzer IV:
Vet1: Ability (Camouflage Ability)
Vet2: +10% armor, +160 HP, +35% sight radius
Vet3: +20% rotation, +20% max speed, -10% reload
Vet4: -25% reload, +30% accuracy
Vet5: Gains "First Strike" bonus when attacking from camouflage

... as you can see the Vet2 bonus for the Jagdpanzer is crazy good. +35% sight radius is basically permanent SU-85 vision cone with no mobility disadvantage. +160 health gives it 800 health; the same as the Panther. It's basically one extra tank shot before death which is real nice.

For the sake of balance I'll snag the SU-85's vet bonuses:
Vet 1: Tracking Ability (Increased vision range)
Vet 2 -30% Reload +30% Accuracy
Vet 3 -20% Reload +20% Max Speed +20% Acceleration +20% Rotation

... Personally I find the SU-85 rather lacking at the moment as its armor is so low that only auto-cannon units like the Ostwind will fail to penetrate it reliably. Its range is a boon but range is essentially map dependent.

Jagdpanzer 4 is pretty excellent although I don't use it much. I get a lot more out of the Puma which is just a little more flexible of a unit and arrives at a more favorable timing. It's a great unit to have in one's toolbox though as a dedicated tank hunter late game.

Jagdpanzer 4 with a little support (shreck and/or raketen) can beat an IS-2 if microed. It's really, really fricking good.

I actually worked out a direct comparison between the two awhile back, with average time to kill for vet 0 jagd vs vet 0 su85, vet 2 vs vet 2, etc etc. I'll dig it up and post the numbers later.

The gist of it is, the Jagd emphasizes defence and the SU85 offense, especially through veterancy. They have the same HP- 640- but the Jagd has 230 armor vs the SU85's 140. The Jagd has a much higher base accuracy though, 0.03 to 0.06 against the SU85's 0.025 to 0.05. The SU85 has a reload of 4.25 sec on average, the Jagd 4.75. The SU85 has slightly higher penetration, 200-180 vs 200-170. Damage is the same at 160, though Jagd does 320 out of cloak at vet 5. Good luck getting it to vet 5 though. Jagd can't see behind itself, and SU85 gets a very useful focus sight ability. The Jagd gets more sight at vet 2 to make up for it. Speeds are roughly the same, as is pathfinding.

SU85 gets a very bad vet 1, while the Jagd gets a handy invisibility cloak. The Jagd gets 10% more armor and 160 more HP at vet 2, while the SU 85 gets a very significant 30% reload deduction and 30% more accuracy, and by vet 3 the su85 does huge amounts of DPS while the jagd doesn't improve offensively by much. Naturally vet 4-5 allow the Jagd to outperform the SU85.

Overall though, I think the Jagd is much better. The reason?
Tier. Virtually no tech cost for the Jagd, comes in a useful tier (and indeed, a vital building for healing). SU85 comes later, from an expensive building, with poorer companion units.

AT guns. German AT guns like the Pak, and veteran Raketens, absolutely decimate the SU85. It gets no defensive bonuses from vet so a vet 3 SU is just as weak. The Jagd has the armor and with vet, HP to operate even where the slow firing Zis and nonpenetrating 57mm are situated.

German vet. German tanks get blitz, smoke, target weakpoint, all the good stuff, that directly works against the SU. Allied tanks get nigh worthless vet.

Tank destroyers. Elegant and Jagd hardcounter any number of SU85s, end of story. Only the ISU beats the Jagd head to head, and two Jagds beat the ISU.

Veterancy. Self explanatory, Jagd gets 5 levels of vet so scales better in theory.

Handheld AT. The hardcounter to these tank destroyers, the allies have none for Soviets and poor AT for USF. Panzerschrecks, are, well, panzershrecks, and every volks squad can force away an su85 which doesn't have the armor to bounce a shreck, whereas bazookas take a long time to kill a Jagd. Double schreck panzergrenadiers, especially with tactical movement, laugh at SU85s. Vice versa, a Jagd with Schreck support is nigh impossible to flank. The same cannot be said of an SU85 with bazookas.

Edit- dammit, ninjaed by the corporal. Oh well.

Please, someone post the manpower and fuel values required for each one.

I've been thinking for a long time that SU85 is the worst Tank Hunter in the game, and that ATguns are much more reliable than a slow, bulky and bad armored tank destroyer.

@Strummingbird
Great analysis, but you forgot to include how weak/strong they are against ATnades & Faust. Because to add up, Jadgpanzer probably will be inmune to ATnades...

Nothing is immune to AT grenades but with 230-253 armor you'll bounce a lot of AT grenades as long as they're on your front.

Panzerfaust will penetrate an SU-85 anywhere between 93-100% of the time depending on the range though. SU-85 armor is just in a terrible place right now.

Strummingbird makes a series of good points though. The SU-85 is a glass cannon right now that scales a little better offensively with veterancy. The accuracy and fire-rate changes probably balance each other out unless you're targeting a very large enemy tank though.

It's not a... bad tank destroyer? Although... objectively I suppose it is probably the worst of the three.


Anyways;

Jagdpanzer IV: 400m/135f
SU-85: -------- 340m/120f

and just to think that a few patches ago they were the best tank destroyers. Over buff over nerf. However, I can't say for myself if the SU85 is underpowered or not, I never see people using it and I rarely use it myself since I go exclusively as Americans I'm going to spam them out to see how they fare.

SU85 really has terrible pathfinding, at least for me

a t34/85 provides a turret, anti infantry, mobility and a little more durability on top of its anti tank capabilties.

the reason for su85 under utilized is that a good 75% of the time ost/okw will go for elefants and jagdtiger to end them once and for all. the only thing that have a chance to take out these heaviest tanks destroyers are flanking t34/85s and isu152. all that results in a huge waste of resources dumped into teching to t4 and deploying a couple of su85s.

once su85 is out of the game, only thing soviets have to slug out with heavy tanks are zis which are easily decrewed by indirect fire, infantry rushes and tiger/KT rounds that 2 shots zis guns quite often.

so rather than to face this kind of situation, many will opt for call in tanks and save the cost, rather than t4 for heavy tank counters.

allied late game AT need some help, like schrecks long range accuracy nerf so that roving bands of volksgrenadier vagabonds cannot wander the battlefield and alpha-snipe tanks.

SU85 really has terrible pathfinding, at least for me

They both have terrible pathfinding

Just played a game, and jagpz4 loves to do donuts when there's a clear reverse path

a t34/85 provides a turret, anti infantry, mobility and a little more durability on top of its anti tank capabilties.

the reason for su85 under utilized is that a good 75% of the time ost/okw will go for elefants and jagdtiger to end them once and for all. the only thing that have a chance to take out these heaviest tanks destroyers are flanking t34/85s and isu152. all that results in a huge waste of resources dumped into teching to t4 and deploying a couple of su85s.

once su85 is out of the game, only thing soviets have to slug out with heavy tanks are zis which are easily decrewed by indirect fire, infantry rushes and tiger/KT rounds that 2 shots zis guns quite often.

so rather than to face this kind of situation, many will opt for call in tanks and save the cost, rather than t4 for heavy tank counters.

allied late game AT need some help, like schrecks long range accuracy nerf so that roving bands of volksgrenadier vagabonds cannot wander the battlefield and alpha-snipe tanks.

Yeah I agree about long range nerf. Hard enough to take out those jeavy tanks when you're own tanks are getting decimated by schrecks

I compared the two a little while ago;



Jagdpanzer 4 is far better but it is more expensive. Jagdpanzer 4 has some really great veterancy too:

Jagdpanzer IV:
Vet1: Ability (Camouflage Ability)
Vet2: +10% armor, +160 HP, +35% sight radius
Vet3: +20% rotation, +20% max speed, -10% reload
Vet4: -25% reload, +30% accuracy
Vet5: Gains "First Strike" bonus when attacking from camouflage

... as you can see the Vet2 bonus for the Jagdpanzer is crazy good. +35% sight radius is basically permanent SU-85 vision cone with no mobility disadvantage. +160 health gives it 800 health; the same as the Panther. It's basically one extra tank shot before death which is real nice.

For the sake of balance I'll snag the SU-85's vet bonuses:
Vet 1: Tracking Ability (Increased vision range)
Vet 2 -30% Reload +30% Accuracy
Vet 3 -20% Reload +20% Max Speed +20% Acceleration +20% Rotation

... Personally I find the SU-85 rather lacking at the moment as its armor is so low that only auto-cannon units like the Ostwind will fail to penetrate it reliably. Its range is a boon but range is essentially map dependent.

Jagdpanzer 4 is pretty excellent although I don't use it much. I get a lot more out of the Puma which is just a little more flexible of a unit and arrives at a more favorable timing. It's a great unit to have in one's toolbox though as a dedicated tank hunter late game.

You forget one very important aspect. Pathfinding on Jagdpanzer IV is very very bad so you have to micro it almost all the time.

They both have terrible pathfinding

Just played a game, and jagpz4 loves to do donuts when there's a clear reverse path

I find this especially hard on the Semoski map, right at the cutoff points with the narrow passages to the village on both sides. More than once my Su-85/ ISU or Elefant has got stuck between the flag and the water and had to back off, turn, drive forwards and then get stuck again.

Its stats aren't bad but I think the price might be deserving of a slight adjustment. The 135 fuel equal 202.5 fuel for a non-penalized faction. (Not taking into account fuel conversion, in which case you're basically paying part of it with munitions. People tend to forget that).
So maybe reducing it to 120 fuel or so would put it in a better position.

Its stats aren't bad but I think the price might be deserving of a slight adjustment. The 135 fuel equal 202.5 fuel for a non-penalized faction. (Not taking into account fuel conversion, in which case you're basically paying part of it with munitions. People tend to forget that).
So maybe reducing it to 120 fuel or so would put it in a better position.

People tend to forget that OKW has many things that the other factions don't have. Stop calculating fuel for OKW. The Jagdpanzer is 135 fuel, not 202.5 (not even a proper calculation, OKW income is >66,6% due to same base-income as the other factions).

Currently, SU85 es too vulnerable to infantry.
As soviet you can't build a dedicated AT tank because most probably it will be destroyed by anything except a tank.

It's too slow and vulnerable to Fausts and Schrecks.

People tend to forget that OKW has many things that the other factions don't have. Stop calculating fuel for OKW. The Jagdpanzer is 135 fuel, not 202.5 (not even a proper calculation, OKW income is >66,6% due to same base-income as the other factions).

Of course. That is why I suggested a slight reduction. It was a very crude conversion because trying to do a "fair" conversion is headache territory.
Point is, if it were a little cheaper, it might see a little more play without turning the game into Jagdpanzer spam or making the unit OP.

120 fuel is too little for what you get. If you are going to make units cost less than what they are worth because 'it's more expensive for OKW', then you might as well remove the fuel income penalty and redesign the faction to not have the benefits the other factions don't have.

If you're doing a faction cost comparison than the SU-85 should cost over 300 fuel because of the cost of unlocking T1/2 then Tier 4.

Of course. That is why I suggested a slight reduction. It was a very crude conversion because trying to do a "fair" conversion is headache territory.
Point is, if it were a little cheaper, it might see a little more play without turning the game into Jagdpanzer spam or making the unit OP.

SU-85 takes a 120 fuel investment to unlock its tier alone. Not counting building T1 or 2.

Jagd comes out of a 40 fuel building that also heals your troops, with 0 prior investment required. When people speak of expensive OKW units, it seems they always forget they also have the cheapest teching in the game. Unless you spam the hell out of both units, relatively speaking your Jagd will always cost less.

I see the Jagd being played when the situation calls for it, IE on maps where you can use its strengths and when you need some extra help to crack Allied tanks. It's useful against virtually every single allied armor out there, as I found since I started playing OKW a bit. it,s a nightmare to destroy when properly microed, its high armor means you need to flank it with medium tanks which is risky. It's built less than the Puma because 1) T2 also offers the juicy Stuka, 2) the Puma is incredibly versatile and also very good, 3) as OKW, you don't need the Jagd to have good AT as you have several options already.