The Problem of Axis in Teamgames

(Note, the following game I play OKW, on an all OKW team. We won. I am not an allies fanboy nor am I currently raging)

Alright guys, the problem of the axis is frankly simple. To win, an axis player has to survive until the late game when his elite infantry and superior tanks can be brought to bear. In theory, the allied player(s) can simply push him off the field before that happens.

In practice, in team games, someone screwed the pooch.

It's not difficult to survive until the lategame as axis. In 1v1, yeah it is. In 4v4, especially on the tiny maps of CoH 2, far from. Axis merely has to setup a nice camp near the fighting and not fuck up too bad. The following replay is every 4v4 I've ever played, axis or allies. It's the same story every time. Allies secure early-midgame advantage. Axis turtles down. Allies can't break the turtle. GG axis wins

The fault isn't the players. The players in this game are none to special and this pattern repeats all the time, anyway. Every 4v4 and most 3v3s I play play out this way.


Here's the replay but you should be quite familiar with this pattern anyway. http://www.coh2.org/replay/22453/axis-issues-with-the-late-game

Absolutely agree.
We (TAB) play many games as 3v3 or 4v4.
Losing the superior tankbattle isn't the fault of us or the enemy.
Going against 2 KT, a jagdtiger, 2 tigers and an elefant + some shrecked squads and obers is just nearly impossible.

In theory, allies can flank and stuff.
But in the real late game, when two evenly skilled opponents/clans meet eachother, the axis have a very great advantage over the allies.

e: Though against an all OKW team, arty does the trick for soviets/USF.
Against a mixed team of OSTH & OKW, it's very, very hard.

I don't agree. OKW in teamgames has a very strong early- and midgame. The OPness of their lategame is overestimated.

Not to sound cocky or arrogant, but tell me, how do you deal with all these units mentioned in my first post?
We just had a clanwar where we had a great VP, Ammo and fuel advantage over the enemy on steppes in the early and mid game, but got slightly pushed back because of heavier tanks.

Late game teamgames are dominated by killing the armor of axis, dont need to deny that. Axis have superior armor, its like that.

This issue is being discussed in plenty of threads, and I agree too.

Mistakes early game are not as relevant as they were in CoH1.
That way is very hard for factions like USF, which specializes in early-middle game, to be relevant in teamgames.

Personally I propose a reduction of the manpower perceived related to your map control.
By doing that, losing map control early game should be more punishing, making more difficult to make comebacks.

Agree.

Today I played 5 Games as Soviet in 3vs3 and 4vs4 and we got just pwned by the OKW death blob and the followng armor spam

This issue is being discussed in plenty of threads, and I agree too.

Mistakes early game are not as relevant as they were in CoH1.
That way is very hard for factions like USF, which specializes in early-middle game, to be relevant in teamgames.

Personally I propose a reduction of the manpower perceived related to your map control.
By doing that, losing map control early game should be more punishing, making more difficult to make comebacks.

I agree to that !

Pretty much. This is why even when I could play higher player count games, Even 2v2s the Axis is pretty favored on but all the most blatantly unbalanced maps. Simply allies are ment to overwhelm and flank (not saying axis cant or should not flank. Adding more players makes it easier to last longer and stronger into the mid game. Early game is avoidable, Late game is not unless huge mistakes are made.

My team usually overcomes heavy armor, but its not easy. It's all about being opportunistic and punishing one heavy at a time.

SU-85 is a great mainstay against medium support + some heavies. Jackson packs a punch, and with speed and a turret it has good flanking potential.

Mark Target in large team games is essential. Having artillery is also helpful, especially a B4. Let's face it, with 3-4 players on a team, you should be considering commander synergy in your choices.

Planting mines diligently while you have the early-mid advantage can help. Have you ever tried using tank traps from a US player creatively? They don't need to be stacked in a row to slow a heavy.

When it comes to fighting elite infantry, Shermans with HE rounds defending your tank destroyers/team weapons/defensive line work wonders. With maxims to suppress, they can shoot a safe distance away frow shreks. They will probably still get shot, but you can easily retreat out of the fighting if needed, on account of being at max range from suppressed squads.

Use your indirect fire team weapons (Pack Howi, Mortars, ZiS Barrage) to punish blobbing into machine guns. The Zis barrage alone can clean out a blobber, if you can aim it ahead of advancing blobs, predict their movement, etc. Short range barrages from pack howi/mortar as a enemy units advance can effectively deter them, damage them, and sometimes wipe them.

Katuyshas are also wonderful for punishing groups of elite infantry. Used at medium-short range, you can beat them before they even get in on you.

3v3 and 4v4 is where combined arms really shines, and you need it to beat Axis heavies. Ironically enough, my experience against skilled 4v4 teams has more Allied late-game comebacks than Axis. Go figure.

Ohme, then their is an issue that goes above balance. The Allied factions, especially Americans, are underpowered in the sense that they are way to difficult to practically play. At the pro level where returns for practice diminish, the game might balance out.

But the majority of the COH 2 fanbase, by simple definition, isn't pros. This is a problem

Then again, try playing 1v1 and 2v2, especially with Ostheer. You'll learn the humble pie recipe very quickly.

Allies cant win in 3v3+, however Axis can lose game by playing bad and making a lot of mistakes.

Jagdtiger which is cheap (yes, boys and girls, you heard it right, cheap. 290fuel-80 for t3 which no sane person playing breakthrough should ever build is 210, 50 fuel less than kt. With fuel conversion and some cashes breakthrough player can build puma and stuka before jagd arrives) is bane of current 3v3 and 4v4 balance. And it is not that hard to keep jagd away from danger considering its range and ability to shoot through buildings.

Command's panther 35 muni mark target also very funny ability which let shreckvolsblob oneshot heavy tanks. Did i mention zeroing arty? He-he.

Honestly, i have no idea how to balance 3v3 and 4v4 again without destroying 1v1.

One thing not mentioned here is that OKW to have these super tanks must sacrifice (for the most part) any armor presence till late game. If they take the risk of saving for these AND THE ALLIED PLAYERS DON'T PUNISH THEM FOR THAT CHOICE then they deserve to win.

One thing not mentioned here is that OKW to have these super tanks must sacrifice (for the most part) any armor presence till late game. If they take the risk of saving for these AND THE ALLIED PLAYERS DON'T PUNISH THEM FOR THAT CHOICE then they deserve to win.

The entire point of the thread is that it's exponentionally more difficult in 3v3 and 4v4 to punish the axis players

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm playing out the exact same game over and over

Axis get beat all game, but are able to hold their fuel. That magical 20 minute mark arrives and vet shreck blobs + stukas + KT start attack-moving and take the map

It's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm playing out the exact same game over and over

Axis get beat all game, but are able to hold their fuel. That magical 20 minute mark arrives and vet shreck blobs + stukas + KT start attack-moving and take the map

That happened too in vCoH. The difference was that you could play to fuel attrition, capping their fuel points, and trying to win the manpower war having more territory than your enemy and thus having more pop cap to compensate their more powerful units.

In CoH2 nothing of that happens, or in a way much less decisive. And with conscripts out of the current meta, you don't even see engine damage in the axis tanks due to ATnades, on the contrary gren spam is at its best, so faust and schrecks give even more advantatge to axis.

I think an OKW trying to save fuel from not purchasing tanks does leave them very vulnerable. The raketenwerfer is pretty rubbish and sometimes it can even be killed in one shot from a Sherman. Volk Shrecks aren't really good at killing tanks unless the enemy tank wants to stick around too long but there is a better chance of the tank wiping out the volks squad than dying.

The OKW doesn't have a lot of equipment that can take on buildings no flame throwers or mortars, I don't see the 75mm howitzer performing well against buildings. The Stuka is pretty much the only thing the OKW has against buildings but even then it's 100 fuel, or 150 fuel if you count the fuel decrease.

my god this topic is like rehab for me!!! i have encountered this so much!!! I just had a 5 game loss streak which featured much of this (and my crap play i guess but still). Even a stalemate in map control is considered a loss basically. If you can't crack Axis quick enough, then you basically lost

I think an OKW trying to save fuel from not purchasing tanks does leave them very vulnerable. The raketenwerfer is pretty rubbish and sometimes it can even be killed in one shot from a Sherman. Volk Shrecks aren't really good at killing tanks unless the enemy tank wants to stick around too long but there is a better chance of the tank wiping out the volks squad than dying.

The OKW doesn't have a lot of equipment that can take on buildings no flame throwers or mortars, I don't see the 75mm howitzer performing well against buildings. The Stuka is pretty much the only thing the OKW has against buildings but even then it's 100 fuel, or 150 fuel if you count the fuel decrease.

Double (or more) OKW teams are "easy" too handle. As you said, the faction has a lack of certain units.
I see OKW as a faction for camping a fuel point, defending it with a couple of subpar AT units (schrecks, racketen, Schwerer Panzer Truck, etc), and trying to harass enemy points with a lot of elite infantry while waiting for the almighty KT to appear for a final push.

The issue is that Ostheer makes up for all the things OKW lacks, and then what it was a desesperate fight for holding map until the KT arrived, turns into a impenetrable wall of MG42, Paks, elite infantry, etc, against which allies can only hold until midgame.

Is then when panzerschrecks really shine, because they are always the decisive factor in the fights between heavy tanks. So, even in the case you have an ISU-152, an IS2 o plenty of Jacksons so fight their KT, Jadgtiger and Elefant; volks and pgrens will always incline the escale to the axis side, giving extra damage from the sides.

Allies have really a lot of trouble dealing with armor lategame. They don't have specialized AT infantry, nor AT emplacements like Pak43, their AT guns are overall inferior to the axis ones, and finally their Tank Hunters lack armor.
It is not strange that axis dominate lategame with these odds against.