Katyusha seriously need a nerf

As ostheer too its getting ridiculous.U have to defend a lot with ostheer with mgs and paks..this unit is compleletely slaughtering that in no time..1 volley killing lone squads..and its firing 4 every 60 seconds.Now make that 2 of these ..In team games its ridiculously OP..even for ost who can't respond because their own arty is inaccesible.

upgraded scout car is a low cost hard counter to katyusha for Ost. You just have to use your magic to get it there.

This kind of logic puts you at the same level with him.

Check my player card, most of my games played are german, but here I am trying to get the stuka fixed

I must be completely unbiased, right? That's what he was trying to pull, and it's 100% bs.

WIFIDI if this shit doesn't stop i'm going to start spamming insults at these soviet fanboy assholes. you make everyone else's posts that get insulting invisible why not freakadella and this fucking retard's?

Because we sleep too. I'll point this thread to other moderators, there are tons of posts that are just disruptive and add nothing to the discussion.

A warning directed to many people here: we will take moderation of the Balance forums very seriously: use common sense, respect other users and write whatever is your point of view in a polite and mannered way or we won't tolerate your presence on our forums.

We want these forums to be constructive and useful for our users and we will take all the necessary actions to get rid of forum warriors who spend all their time attacking each other here rather than playing the game.

Because we sleep too. I'll point this thread to other moderators, there are tons of posts that are just disruptive and add nothing to the discussion.

A warning directed to many people here: we will take moderation of the Balance forums very seriously: use common sense, respect other users and write whatever is your point of view in a polite and mannered way or we won't tolerate your presence on our forums.

We want these forums to be constructive and useful for our users and we will take all the necessary actions to get rid of forum warriors who spend all their time attacking each other here rather than playing the game.

Just watch who's the first user to start provoking and picking fights, we all know who is him, and I think he is the one who needs inmediately moderation, not the others... (IMO)

I think it can generally be agreed that both Katyusha and Stuka are overperforming, albeit in different ways.

On Katyusha, I think its primarily a problem with the AoE being too wide, between the AoE and how many missiles are fired, it more or less completely saturates the template area, with very few gaps inbetween. Doesn seem to have that "random" hit kind of feel anymore that I think was good and characterful for the unit.

The secondary specific problem of the dmg on OKW trucks. Overall, considering the shorter cooldown on Katyusha, I find it difficult to reconcile it doing a full 160dmg.

Katyusha could perhaps use a small Cooldown increase, especially inlight of teamgames where many of them can basically be cycled for a continous salvo. But not to the same CD as Stuka.

I recommend an AoE reduction, and, if possible, preferably, a negative modifier vs whatever "type" OKW trucks are, and a nerf in dmg, to say 120dmg.

As to Stuka, I would recommend a slower creep on the missile impacts, for two reasons.
1) There isnt enough reaction time on a frontline traversed by it. Increasing the time between impacts slightly would allow atleast the tail end of the template to react a bit, once you can see what direction it is traversing in.
2) The rate of impacts is ideal for retreat wipes, if you can time the launch correctly. Placed ideally along a retreat path, each missile will hit the hapless unit right on the head at the same pace as it retreats at. There was a similar issue in DoW2 with LGs Creeping Barrage offmap. Its somewhat marginal, because of the timing required, but as VonIvan for example has demonstrated, it is possible and devastating. CoH2 overall tends to frown on retreat wiping, and I think Stuka should be changed to reflect that.

As to Panzerwerfer, I honestly havent seen em used enough, due to the T4 cost issues. Sort of telling of something though, that Katyusha and Stuka both have had enormous threads on them, but Panzerwerfer remains largely a non-issue

I think it can generally be agreed that both Katyusha and Stuka are overperforming, albeit in different ways.

On Katyusha, I think its primarily a problem with the AoE being too wide, between the AoE and how many missiles are fired, it more or less completely saturates the template area, with very few gaps inbetween. Doesn seem to have that "random" hit kind of feel anymore that I think was good and characterful for the unit.

The secondary specific problem of the dmg on OKW trucks. Overall, considering the shorter cooldown on Katyusha, I find it difficult to reconcile it doing a full 160dmg.

Katyusha could perhaps use a small Cooldown increase, especially inlight of teamgames where many of them can basically be cycled for a continous salvo. But not to the same CD as Stuka.

I recommend an AoE reduction, and, if possible, preferably, a negative modifier vs whatever "type" OKW trucks are, and a nerf in dmg, to say 120dmg.

As to Stuka, I would recommend a slower creep on the missile impacts, for two reasons.
1) There isnt enough reaction time on a frontline traversed by it. Increasing the time between impacts slightly would allow atleast the tail end of the template to react a bit, once you can see what direction it is traversing in.
2) The rate of impacts is ideal for retreat wipes, if you can time the launch correctly. Placed ideally along a retreat path, each missile will hit the hapless unit right on the head at the same pace as it retreats at. There was a similar issue in DoW2 with LGs Creeping Barrage offmap. Its somewhat marginal, because of the timing required, but as VonIvan for example has demonstrated, it is possible and devastating. CoH2 overall tends to frown on retreat wiping, and I think Stuka should be changed to reflect that.

As to Panzerwerfer, I honestly havent seen em used enough, due to the T4 cost issues. Sort of telling of something though, that Katyusha and Stuka both have had enormous threads on them, but Panzerwerfer remains largely a non-issue

I understand that this thread has more or less degraded into a stuka vs katyusha debate, and though I don't think it should be the focus, I realize why that's what the topic is. So with that disclaimer in place.

If we look at these two units separately, which I believe is necessary as they are two different factions functioning against two different enemies, I think we can get to real discussion.

The reason so many people are baffled by the katyusha's effectiveness is honestly, how devastating it can be to the German armies, but more specifically OKW. I'll focus on OKW and RU as that seems appropriate lately. With economic strains, veterency emphasis, and elite unit preservation in mind, the katyusha is simply far too punishing. I haven't played a game since the update where either myself, an opponent, or an ally has not preemtively retreated at the sound of katyusha fire and STILL lost a full squad (often vetted) outright within the first wave. There's still three more. This also isn't considering the issue that OKW is built on a foundation of building decisions. Currently, the katyusha makes that decision for you. In two waves of barrages, whatever truck you deployed is gone.

Now, a lot of people have argued that "well, that's your fault for being aggressive, pay the price." That MIGHT be valid if that was the only realistic way of uprooting these bases. But we all know it's not. Furthermore, this is not just a unit that destroys bases, it goes from blob control on an extreme level to killing off a single squad attempting to capture a point.

The stuka is a separate topic.

The stuka is useful for blob control, and while yes, there is a strong chance a few units may be wiped depending on the group's size, unless the units are marching in a very careful and narrow line on a very predictable path, you're not going to have the same effect as if a katyusha was firing on that same collective. THAT right there, is not a problem -- the problem is how horribly strong it is currently. Let me repeat that. I do think that if you had two of the exact same groups moving in the exact same manner and hit directly by both a katyusha and a stuka, the katyusha should be awarded the higher death toll. I don't like homogenization. I like when differentiating units have differentiating strengths and weaknesses.

The stuka, I feel, shines in very certain scenarios. Clearing out buildings and hitting a set up line. However, when a line, perfectly centered, is squared up perfectly and fired on, you rarely squad wipe healthy and repaired set up squads. Infact, I'd say a third of the time the artillery skips a beat and all but takes a few models. That's not a problem either.

Just to get this out prior to counter points because I can feel this one creeping up fast; to compare mobile blobs and the effectiveness of each is almost silly. The targeting reticles themselves should be enough evidence of that. It's like comparing the effected area of a streamlined laser and a shotgun.

All that said. This shouldn't be a debate where the validity of the subject is justified by another unit.

I think saying the Kat is OP is fair enough, it's doing the same if not more damage than an off map arty/mortar strike and once you've spent the initial MP & fuel on the Kat every strike after that is free, rather than costing 150-200 odd ammo ala the "I win" button.

I don't really care about it either - just sayin'

The Stuka has to be used with a little more care as it's firing area is in a straight, narrow line and therefore a lot harder to hit advancing con blobs when timed with the usual <500 pings...

upgraded scout car is a low cost hard counter to katyusha for Ost. You just have to use your magic to get it there.

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  Katyusha BS

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Here. I countered 2 of them with Pumas. Matchup against veeeery terrible Soviet player who achieved nothing and was pushed back really badly. It would have been base lock down if it wasn't for his Katyusha spam to bring him back.


Katyusha costs less, have bigger damage, bigger AoE radius, destroys base buildings and medium tanks and it shoots almost twice as often.
If in your fanboy minds Stuka was OP as hell (hence the cry I assume?) than according to YOUR logic Katyusha is OP as well. If, again according to your own logic, Katyusha is fine now then Stuka was never OP in the first place and you were simply lying.

The reason so many people are baffled by the katyusha's effectiveness is honestly, how devastating it can be to the German armies, but more specifically OKW. I'll focus on OKW and RU as that seems appropriate lately. With economic strains, veterency emphasis, and elite unit preservation in mind, the katyusha is simply far too punishing. I haven't played a game since the update where either myself, an opponent, or an ally has not preemtively retreated at the sound of katyusha fire and STILL lost a full squad (often vetted) outright within the first wave. There's still three more. This also isn't considering the issue that OKW is built on a foundation of building decisions. Currently, the katyusha makes that decision for you. In two waves of barrages, whatever truck you deployed is gone.

despite your nice essay on katyusha vs stuka, which is in my opinion very much 1 sided. i only want to talk about this part especially the ones in bold. elite status, economic strains and veterancy emphasis.

1stly, the only strains okw has are fuel. they get 100% munitions and manpower rate and as far as i know, the katyusha only counters infantry. it has a pen of only 50 and will not do anything to armour. at best, light vehicles can be damaged by stray rockets and destroyed by precision strikes. with that said, katyusha does barely any fuel damage and thus economic strains should not be used as a point in the argument. all other factions are also hit equally hard by artillery and manpower losses, so whats the point of bringing up, economic strains?

2ndly, elite status. there is nothing elite about okw, it is merely a description. they do not pay a premium for their units. infantry still cost as they should and infact are too cheap in some cases. for instance, obers and fallshirms. they cost around 400mp(not sure about falls) and for their cost, they do more dps than guards who when upgraded are 330 + 75*1.66 = 454mp. for comparison, the lmg34 obers have alone does more dps than the entire guards squad. of course, guards can button tanks and does minimal damage to armour but the point stands, where's the premium cost for their 'elite status'.

3rdly, veterancy emphasis. again means nothing. which faction do not need veterancy to survive in the field? the reason why okw infantry can vet to the high heavens is unknown, maybe for vehicles, yes because the fuel strain is there and they must preserve their vehicles and should be rewarded for it. but not for infantry, all faction MUST preserve their squads and again, the okw dont pay a premium for their infantry units, yet are able to vet to 5. this is not a real major problem early, but it adds up when volks with schrecks vet so fast to 5 and 4 k98 can hold the ground so long and dish out damage against dp-28s and conscript fire.

4thly, again said for the sake of saying. all factions do not get the whole tech unlocked. soviets must choose between t3 and t4. Ostheer cannot unlock all battle phases and get tanks fast enough. what building decisions are you talking about that is so unique to the okw?

Your argument isn't any better than his, it's simply worded more coherently.

It's clearly bias and the fact that your justification for the katyusha's current state is an opposing unit says worlds about your logic. It's not a productive thought nor does it provide any reason or perspective as to why you hold to the logic so fervently.

You don't want to be lumped in with him? Elevate your company.

The last sentence is really disgusting. Don't want to get hated because of your own opinion? Join our german side. I reported you to the Admins, I hope they see that you are just insulting other users over 4 pages... Bye bye


I still think the Katyusha is fine as it is. The Stuka comes very early and counters 1. all sovjet weapon teams 2. 1 Rocket is enough to kill katyusha. Also you can control the fire of the Stuka more because you can exactly say where it has to hit. Thus the damage must decrease. The katyusha is fine because you need luck with it.

The Katyusha should be nerfed, absolutely.

It should be nerfed for all the same reasons the Stuka should be nerfed.

How the fuck does nobody actually fucking understand that? It must take a special kind of autism to not make such a simple fucking connection.

I'm all for Stuka nerf as well as long as it comes with price adjustment.

Regardless of the stupid trench warfare going on in this thread, it should not have been buffed in this absolutely massive manner.
The buffs seen on July 22nd meant that their blast area was more than doubled, their damage doubled (making it a lot better against buildings and increasing the lethality radius against infantry even further). In a way, the scatter changes make it even more deadly against stationary targets (hit more in the center of circle), more unpredictable on the receiving end (some rockets may fall further away, making dodging its impact area harder) and more deadly against infantry overall.

Balance changes should not be done that ham-fisted. Increasing its damage or its AoE radius would probably have been ok but doing both at once was a horrible idea.

It should not really matter if people think the Panzerwerfer is OP or not and you guys should stop bickering about it and make an extra thread. Arguing "unit A isn't OP because the another faction has a unit that I think is just as OP" is Kindergarten reasoning. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I still think the Katyusha is fine as it is. The Stuka comes very early and counters 1. all sovjet weapon teams 2. 1 Rocket is enough to kill katyusha. Also you can control the fire of the Stuka more because you can exactly say where it has to hit. Thus the damage must decrease. The katyusha is fine because you need luck with it.

No offense, but your perception appears quite warped.

The Stuka costs an effective 150 fuel, and that's if you go Mechanized first and forgoe all other fuel expanditure (Puma, Healing Truck etc.). Considering that you'll want some form of vehicular AT (Puma) first.. going Stuka-first is a pretty terrible decision.

And considering the fact that the Katy fires 16 rockets, that have 6 AoE and 160 damage... how much luck do you really need?
Not to mention that base trucks are bloody huge anyway.

No offense, but your perception appears quite warped.

The Stuka costs an effective 150 fuel, and that's if you go Mechanized first and forgoe all other fuel expanditure (Puma, Healing Truck etc.). Considering that you'll want some form of vehicular AT (Puma) first.. going Stuka-first is a pretty terrible decision.

And considering the fact that the Katy fires 16 rockets, that have 6 AoE and 160 damage... how much luck do you really need?
Not to mention that base trucks are bloody huge anyway.

The Katyusha does devastating damage and you can kill the trucks with it, but still you need some luck to hit with it (not on trucks but on units) The Stuka can do devastating damage if you have a good player skill and you can deny most of sovjet weapon teams with it (especially in team games). So I guess it's okay, isn't it?

I have no idea why the Stuka is brought up. It's also OP, but to a lesser degree and it has its own thread. This is about the Katyusha, which definitely overperforms.

So I guess it's okay, isn't it?

No. Its not ok. Both need a nerf, of a different sort, but the Katyusha in particular, due to the stacking effect of the buffs it got in one swing.

As rofltehcat pointed out, two wrongs do not make a right.