Soviets - A core faction discussion

It doesn't really matter how many guns they have if these guns combined already do much less then german counterparts.

Since you don't seem to get it.

If the Soviet gun had the same damage as the Ostheer, then the squad would be ~2.25 as strong.
If the Soviet guns in total had the same damage as Ostheer, then the squad would be 1.5 as strong (since it still has 50% more HP).
Every single gun needs roughly 2.25 times less damage than the German equivalent to be even.

I know this sounds weird, but that's the way since no entities have armor.

Somehow the m8 motor carriage is a great unit. Then looking at the su-76, you see it serves little function. Soviets have a problem where units are too similar to each other, but one isnt that much better than the other. Such as conscripts- penals, su-76 - su-85 (su-76 barrage isnt all that special) as well as t-70 - t-34 (because there is way too small of a price difference between the two, and they are right next to each other). And conscript ppsh's aren't really special these days, so conscripts getting ppsh's nondoctrinally at some point is a good idea. The only thing Soviets got going is that units are somewhat cheaper (to reinforce), slightly more durable, and available at a good time. Thats it. Then there's that gap until you get t34/85's, IS-2's, or ISU-152's. Also decent tank AI, but terrible available and largely untrustable nondoctrinal AT.

largely untrustable nondoctrinal AT.

With a couple small adjustment to the SU85 I think this could be fixed.

The problem is you still have quite a large fuel gap between the ZiS and the SU-85. If you went T1, you can have no non-doctrinal AT whatsoever until you sink 200+ more fuel. And it's not like your doctrinal AT is any good, either. There's a reason you rarely see Guards in 1v1.

Those problems are kinda absent in 2v2 where it's easier to have multiple AT guns, or have one player go Guards, or have someone go T-34 as a stopgap with the other gets SU-85s. But in 1v1, Soviet's lackluster AT until doctrinal heavies roll in can grow into a problem.

I agree 100% with Napalm.

Lets see What to pick infantry wise whatttt to Pick....

Well these pesky Sturm Pios are great at close to mid range sooooo...

Conscripts? No to close range ok then

Penals? No still too close range?

STs? Crap yet again close range but at least can beat Sturms

Guards? OMG A LONG RANGE UNIT! Guess ill just use T34/85s might as well...

I have been saying this since the change to Penals. Make them long range DPS units like they used to be. But without the absurd cost.

Honestly the soviet core army design is terrible. It's like they tried to do the flexible tech tree of vCoH US and just completely bungled it. Their play is always going to be dominated by maxims and call-ins because the rest of the stuff is crap.

The problem that I have is that conscripts AND penals both fulfill similar roles, close range combat units which don't scale well into the late game. The reason that maxim spam is so prevalent is because it is the only way to defeat German infantry without sticking a rifle in their face. If we could change the role of one of these units slightly to make them more adept at holding the line, perhaps by giving conscripts a version of the ostruppen cover buff, we could give the soviets more choices early and late game in terms of mainline infantry. (obviously this would also mean that the conscripts would have to lose some accuracy when not in cover/ on the move).

What do you guys think?

Actually, Penals scale really, really well into late game. They do loads of damage up close, and with the flamers they are even better.

Actually, Penals scale really, really well into late game. They do loads of damage up close, and with the flamers they are even better.

I agree that Penals are great at dealing damage at close range, but late game the problem becomes getting them there. After the first mortars and vehicles come out, much of the infantry cover is gone, and Penals have to charge/ flank through Obersoldatan and Panzer fire. Their lack of armor makes it extremely easy to focus-murder them, and I don't believe they have accuracy modifiers. Anyways, I don't really have a problem with that, I just believe that the soviets should have at least one viable non-doctrinal defensive infantry.

It's also a shift in WFA: previously, the most elite infantry of each faction were close range. Shock Troops and PGrens were powerful, but had to run up to something to start killing it. LMG grens had longer ranged killing power, but needed to spend ammo and it came on a fairly fragile platform. Even in COH1 it was that way; Thompson rangers, STG44 Stormtroopers/PGrens and Commandos were their faction's best elite infantry and were all short ranged.

But in WFA, you got a bevy of elite infantry with insane long-range DPS that can just sit back and chew through anything that's not as leet as them almost effortlessly. 1919 Rifles and paratroopers, Falls to a lesser degree, vetted Panzerfusiliers, and of course Obers can all lay down a lot of hurt at maximum, a-move range, and the last can also ignore cover and has bonus against retreat. It has made the battlefield far more lethal for infantry late game. I don't really like it, and it makes the elite infantry of the older factions seem a bit inadequate.

@Katitof and @MilkaCow

I think you both kinda missed the mark. Napalm isn't saying buff penals DPS because they are underperforming but rather, change them from being mid-short range units to make them a long range one.

Since now they are more or less just conscripts with more DPS, flames and satchel. Changing their stats by improving their long-range DPS and perhaps lowering their short-mid range would make them distinct from the conscrips.


Furthermore I agree with Katitof about the SU-76M, I like my little Suchka. and there barrage is great against blobbing.
To make it more used how about changing it so it will do similar as the US M8?
Buffing its AT and armour would just make it a smaller SU-85 and I don't think it would be used more because of that.

Regarding su76, I have seen someone in the past suggest switching its place with t34/76, which imo would be only logical. Soviet t3 building cost could then be lowered and it would resemble more vcoh1 americans (half the fuel price of t4?). Adjust the prices and performance of t70 and su76 afterwards accordingly so they would be kinda like vcoh1 greyhound and at gun.

As it is now, su76 is (supposed to be) both tank destroyer and artillery piece in a building where you already have better units for those roles. I know some people will have strong opinions about having t34/76 and su85 in the same building, but how is that really different than having su85 and doctrinal t34/85, sherman m4c or kv1.

This would increase the combined arms options for soviets, where t70 could now be used to spot for su76 and t34/76 with ram together with su85 would pose some serious threat against enemy armor. Also I wouldn´t mind if zis barrage would be removed as now you could get su76 out faster if you need some bunker busting done and t2 already has mortar for barrage duties.

Really great work Napalm! The most important issues are named here so I hope relic will read through this. And please german fanboys,calm your tits

Actually, Penals scale really, really well into late game. They do loads of damage up close, and with the flamers they are even better.

What game are you playing? Because it sure isn't the one I am.

Penals start off by not being able to compete with grens. They can compete with grens even less in the long run once LMGs start appearing. And they are insanely vulnerable to vehicles

Penals start off by not being able to compete with sturmpios. Once elite infantry starts hitting the field from OKW they do even worse. Vet3 penals vs vet0 fusiliers with g43s? Fusiliers win. Vet0 fallschirms vs vet3 penals? Fallschirms win. Vet0 obers vs vet3 penals? Obers win. And against penals you can just spam pumas to counter everything the soviet player will have.

Penal combat capabilities scale ever so slightly better due to their vet than conscripts. But in no way is this extra scaling anywhere near as useful as ATnades on cons or the ability to not have resources wasted on T1. I'm not sure there is a single point in time in any matchup where you'd have more firepower on the field by having gone for penals than you would by just spamming cons, and cons don't suffer from the same utter inability to do anything to vehicles that penals do.

Wall of text is hiding in spoiler.

TL: DR don't shift around SU-76, but shift around T1-T2 a bit. Maxim to t1, sniper or m3 to t2. Make both tiers needed. Will give Sovs more flexibilty and a strong base on which to build into late.

Show Spoiler

@Katitof and @MilkaCow

I think you both kinda missed the mark. Napalm isn't saying buff penals DPS because they are underperforming but rather, change them from being mid-short range units to make them a long range one.

I was referencing the DPS sheets in general, as this presentation leaves the impression Soviet units are worse, while in reality only if their guns are far worse they are actually of equal strength.

I do not really agree with the assessment that Soviet non doctrinal infantry cannot stand up to the other factions, as I find especially vs Oberkommando they can. In the early game Cons can easily win against Volks and can win per cost against Sturms (fire, when they get too close either soft retreat with Oorah or hard retreat). Mid/lategame flame weapons are a great equalizer. No matter if super cheap or super expensive - flame weapons kill all equally unlike small arms. Molotovs and Flamethrowers can seriously trouble the Oberkommando.

I think the biggest problem right now is that too many people rely on Maxims because they cannot micro the other infantry squads. Fielding 4-5 Maxims (and then other support weapons) will mean you have a really easy earlygame as Maxims win against basically any other squad 1v1, but against a good Oberkommando or Ostheer player this is somewhat of a debit. You gain earlygame strength, but you leave yourself open to hardcounters like leIG, Walking Stuka, Mortar HT, Mortars, PG-HTs and other things. Once such long range weapons are on the field or the terrain is littered with craters the Maxims will be useless. They lose their gunner to troops charging from the front which is a death sentence. The artillery decrews or destroys them. Try playing without using Maxims or using a maximum of 1 or 2. That gives you several normal infantry units to be offensive, but also strong supporting firepower with the maxims.

I can agree on the assessments of Penals and SU-76 though. I think both of them are in a bad spot. The SU-76 is too expensive to be used as a barrage tool and it's performance vs tanks is too bad per cost. Unlike the T70 which shares a similar price point he has close to no shock value since only few people field the 222 and Flame HT nowadays.
Penals are problematic. A lot of their cost is probably going into those utility abilities (Satchel, Flamethrower), as those are incredibly strong. I personally would prefer if they lost the flamethrower upgrade, but got some standard infantry weapon upgrade. To stay similar to their current role and minimize costs probably give them a 3 AVT-40 upgrade.

SU-85 on the other hand I disagree with. It's a unit that's extremely dedicated AT and can be an useful addition to an infantry based army. If you already got T2 though the role can be filled to a degree with a ZiS-3 and a spotter, making it redundant. I personally think the biggest problem of this unit is the others in T4. It's a purely defensive tier with whom you cannot chase down enemies to finish them off. The lack of a turreted tank is really felt a lot :/

I was referencing the DPS sheets in general, as this presentation leaves the impression Soviet units are worse, while in reality only if their guns are far worse they are actually of equal strength.

Aah, I see, yes the spreads should probably be remade for Squad based DPS, perhaps possible to get HP in aswell.

Mid/lategame flame weapons are a great equalizer. No matter if super cheap or super expensive - flame weapons kill all equally unlike small arms. Molotovs and Flamethrowers can seriously trouble the Oberkommando.

Yeah it is true that sovs have the ability to reduce their disadvantage with fire, but I think the point Napalm is making is that Sovs lack any long-range infantry. Aswell as a lack of distiction between penals and scripts. I like the idea about upgrading to three SVT-40s. How about giving them quite alot less DPS in short-mid, increasing it in long. And the semi-auto rifles could then be used to make them perform a little bit better in mid-close. Like G-43 for Grens?

I think the biggest problem right now is that too many people rely on Maxims because they cannot micro the other infantry squads. Fielding 4-5 Maxims (and then other support weapons) will mean you have a really easy earlygame as Maxims win against basically any other squad 1v1, but against a good Oberkommando or Ostheer player this is somewhat of a debit....

Here I was thinking I was spamming yesterday with 3 maxims in a 4v4.
Really 5 of them? Yeah agreed that many is just plain bullcrap, but hopefully they are adequetly punished for it by arty.

Flame weapons are of limited usefulness against Obers. They chew Penals to pieces before they get in range, and engies aren't even a consideration. Sure, you can ambush at close range, but given the randomness of flamers even that doesn't guarantee a win, and late game ambushes become less effective as the map becomes blasted apart.

Na, the only true infantry counters to Obers are vetted shocks backed by a microed sniper, I found.

The SU85 nerfs were timed when both the PiV and Panther received mobility nerfs. Both of those have been units have now received increased mobility. In addition a new faction has come out with the Puma. Something needs to be done to make this unit worth while to build because as it stands I can just rely on any series of armor call in's that do a better job than the supposed "dedicated AT" SU85.

I dislike comparing units directly but the shock value of a JagdPanzer compared to a SU85 is laughable. If the price needs to go up to allow the SU85 to at least compete than so be it. As a "dedicated AT" it sure does a lack luster job late game.

What game are you playing? Because it sure isn't the one I am.

Penals start off by not being able to compete with grens. They can compete with grens even less in the long run once LMGs start appearing. And they are insanely vulnerable to vehicles

Penals start off by not being able to compete with sturmpios. Once elite infantry starts hitting the field from OKW they do even worse. Vet3 penals vs vet0 fusiliers with g43s? Fusiliers win. Vet0 fallschirms vs vet3 penals? Fallschirms win. Vet0 obers vs vet3 penals? Obers win. And against penals you can just spam pumas to counter everything the soviet player will have.

Penal combat capabilities scale ever so slightly better due to their vet than conscripts. But in no way is this extra scaling anywhere near as useful as ATnades on cons or the ability to not have resources wasted on T1. I'm not sure there is a single point in time in any matchup where you'd have more firepower on the field by having gone for penals than you would by just spamming cons, and cons don't suffer from the same utter inability to do anything to vehicles that penals do.

Damnit Cruzz, the Shermans OpieOP Also Cruzz is right, Penals will force you to micro even harder and retreat even sooner than using regular cons. AT Nades/Molo > Penal Dmg + satchel.

The SU85 nerfs were timed when both the PiV and Panther received mobility nerfs. Both of those have been units have now received increased mobility. In addition a new faction has come out with the Puma. Something needs to be done to make this unit worth while to build because as it stands I can just rely on any series of armor call in's that do a better job than the supposed "dedicated AT" SU85.

I dislike comparing units directly but the shock value of a JagdPanzer compared to a SU85 is laughable. If the price needs to go up to allow the SU85 to at least compete than so be it. As a "dedicated AT" it sure does a lack luster job late game.

honestly i don't think the jadgpanzer 4 needs a nerf but the su85 i feel needs a buff.