My Opinion on Successes and Failures this patch

So I have wracked up quite a few games in this patch. Overall I am pretty happy with these changes. Relic doesnt really put out mission statements in their patch notes but they are pretty easy to infer.

It seems to me a big push has been made to make mid game more the territory of light vehicles, late mid game the reign of non doctrinal armor, and early late game the realm of the call ins.

I am quite excited by this prospect but I think due to certain changes and faction design it kind of falls flat.

First the choice of soviet light vehicles is the M3. So there is no variety in Soviet Capability and the 222 seems a bit too squishy. For this to be a defacto go to period in the progression of the game I think the use of light vehicles should be more rewarding.

The next phase of progression is German tech or Soviet tech. However right now in the Meta call ins still seem to be a favored strat. And punishment for waiting for those call ins seems minimal. Especially against the Puma. Since it comes just as early as T3/T4 Soviet. In fact that commander discourages the use of Soviet T3 completely and once again rewards call in units disproportionately.

Building a T70 with a Puma threat is absolutely pointless. Same goes to a lesser extent with the SU76. The only real defense in the meta for the T70 is speed. But the Puma has no issue there. Before knowing about the Puma being released I was excited at the prospect of using the T70 again but it doesnt really get its operational spot. It doesnt come early enough imho to risk getting it.

Puma aside though against a German that utilizes T3/T4 however T3 in general is useful. So I feel this is a success. Though with the Sherman, Single T34/85 call in, IS2, ISU152 it feels much better to wait for Call ins still with tech price being what it is.

The overall armor improvements imho this patch were really well done with the exception below:

Puma comes too early seems too durable to be that fast and have such excellent range and AT.

ISU152 is a kill everything unit. It is the most expensive unit and it should be just as deadly as it it is now but shouldnt squad whipe. Maybe change its scatter and its ROF/Damage to compensate?

Panther got overnerfed imho. The Pen bug aside with Tech cost and unit cost it as well as it no longer being "God on treads" there is very little incentive to utilize them for most players.

T70/SU76 still suffer from being too high risk too low reward.

Stug G seems to be too inexpensive for its effectiveness.

Artillery is now even higher risk and about the same mid to low reward unit. They are simply too expensive to die to a single offmap strike.

Building a T70 with a Puma threat is absolutely pointless. Same goes to a lesser extent with the SU76. The only real defense in the meta for the T70 is speed. But the Puma has no issue there. Before knowing about the Puma being released I was excited at the prospect of using the T70 again but it doesnt really get its operational spot. It doesnt come early enough imho to risk getting it.

The t34/75 fares rather well against the puma. A t70 is useful in the right scenario. Getting one with pumas around will never be the best idea but one could wait to see if there is a puma or just go for a t34 and opt for the t70 afterwards.

ISU152 is a kill everything unit. It is the most expensive unit and it should be just as deadly as it it is now but shouldnt squad whipe. Maybe change its scatter and its ROF/Damage to compensate?

The ISU seems to be overperforming. However lowering damage/rof and increasing scatter will not only decrease it's potency against infantry but that against tanks as well. It would be more sensible to decrease scatter (a tanks aims at one entity of a squad, decreased scatter means it's more likely to hit that entity) and decrease the aoe (the splash damage the projectile does). That way the tank would more consistently hit one entity but not the entire squad. One could also just lower the aoe.

Panther got overnerfed imho. The Pen bug aside with Tech cost and unit cost it as well as it no longer being "God on treads" there is very little incentive to utilize them for most players.

The panther currently doesn't have the penetration value it is supposed to have, therefore a final verdict is not possible at this moment as it is not working as initially intended.

"The t34/75 fares rather well against the puma. A t70 is useful in the right scenario. Getting one with pumas around will never be the best idea but one could wait to see if there is a puma or just go for a t34 and opt for the t70 afterwards."

T70 is too expensive to risk using is my point. Can it be used? Yep nothing stopping you. But its a single faust, mine, puma away from a total waste.

You are also forgeting Tech costs. I would agree that unit per unit a T34/76 is an OK choice (not great but OK) against the Puma. However the Puma has no tech cost. The first T34/76 is likely to see two Pumas. And any infantry support is likely to take it in the face by the command tanks gun. So T3 is more or less a very very bad choice.

"The ISU seems to be overperforming. However lowering damage/rof and increasing scatter will not only decrease it's potency against infantry but that against tanks as well. It would be more sensible to decrease scatter (a tanks aims at one entity of a squad, decreased scatter means it's more likely to hit that entity) and decrease the aoe (the splash damage the projectile does). That way the tank would more consistently hit one entity but not the entire squad. One could also just lower the aoe. "

A change like that would decrease its AI overall. I still think since its the top of all Soviet Tech and Soviet is an AI primarily faction it should be the best damn AI this game has to offer. It accomplishes that through One hit kills right now. One hit kills are no fun. There should be some other way to balance it so that it is just as lethal to current infantry and armor as it is but doesnt do it in one hit. I dont care if its just a nano second to react like accidently stumbling into an SMine field gives you. But Ost needs some time to react.



"The panther currently doesn't have the penetration value it is supposed to have, therefore a final verdict is not possible at this moment as it is not working as initially intended."

Penetration doesnt increase the units DPS outside of what it doesnt already penetrate. Even if every shot Pens pretty much every unit it hits I feel its too expensive (considering all the other nerfs it took).

And not as attractive as using a call in. I am personally sick of the "Just gonna use call-ins" meta. And like i brought up earlier there seems to be little increase in incentive not to wait.

There isn't such a thing like AI faction in coh lol. The game only has 2 factions. Calling the soviets an Anti Infantry faction shows that you don't have a clue about the game, no offense.

Soviet armor is geared primarily to be good at AI. Its not an AI only faction. All its armor and support weapons are geared to be better at AI where most of the German units are superior in AT duties

Zis Barrage
Pak ROF

P4 AT T34s ability to do AI as well as moderate AT
ISU152 vs the Elephant
T70
SU76 barrage vs the Old Stugs ability at AT

etc. Where have you been? No offense.

Soviets have always focuses more on AI then AT.

Edit: Forgot to mention Panzerwerfer having excellent Penetration where the Katushya has none really.

There isn't such a thing like AI faction in coh lol. The game only has 2 factions. Calling the soviets an Anti Infantry faction shows that you don't have a clue about the game, no offense.

Heartless is somewhat right. Most soviet weapons are tailored to take out infantry rather than being at, while Germans have more potent at options at their disposal. This is highlighted by the dual purpose of the zis and su76 or the lack of any potent infantry based at. This is a design choice and I think that any one from Relic would agree that the basic idea behind the factions was to some degree what Heartless pointed out.

Heartless, I disagree about your assessment of my proposed changes. If you decrease scatter it is more likely for the isu to hit an infantry entity (maybe you'd have to tinker with accuracy as well). If you decrease the splash damage (aoe) you decrease the chance of all nearby entities being killed. If you combine the two you can achieve the same lethality that the isu currently has against infantry but reduce the likelihood of squad wipes.

Let me know what you think.

Heartless is somewhat right. Most soviet weapons are tailored to take out infantry rather than being at, while Germans have more potent at options at their disposal. This is highlighted by the dual purpose of the zis and su76 or the lack of any potent infantry based at. This is a design choice and I think that any one from Relic would agree that the basic idea behind the factions was to some degree what Heartless pointed out.

Heartless, I disagree about your assessment of my proposed changes. If you decrease scatter it is more likely for the isu to hit an infantry entity (maybe you'd have to tinker with accuracy as well). If you decrease the splash damage (aoe) you decrease the chance of all nearby entities being killed. If you combine the two you can achieve the same lethality that the isu currently has against infantry but reduce the likelihood of squad wipes.

Let me know what you think.

Sherlock thats the best proposed change I have seen to the ISU. It would probably be more than made up for by still having a huge Anti Blob efficiency. My fear is if its not squad whiping it has a pretty high reload which would make it rather poor at taking out infantry if that is considered. But it still has the MG upgrade which is great on all armor this patch so if anything got close to it it would still fair pretty well.

T70/SU76 still suffer from being too high risk too low reward.

I agree with most of your observations, especially this one. I still believe that the SU76 and T70 should be swapped between their respective buildings. With the increased fuel costs for both vehicles, any minor improvements these units received are lost due to them still coming far too late and essentially being a weaker version of the unit's they share a building with.

I'll restate here why they will find more use in different buildings:
T70 is a weaker version of the T34/76 and in most cases a player is better off simply waiting to build the new and improved T34/76. Same applies with the SU76, it is a weaker version of the SU85 (albeit the barrage is a decent ability), and most players will simply wait for the SU85 while stalling with their ZiS.

If Relic were to swap these unit positions between buildings, you then have the SU76 providing reasonable AT from range while the T34/76 engages, while the ability to barrage gives T3 a form of light artillery it is currently lacking; you would also find great use for the T70 in T4 in the way of being able scout at range and provide sight for the SU85, while also being able to provide close range AI support to the SU85.

I know it's unlikely that Relic will adopt such a change, but the fact remains that despite their currently stronger late game potential, the Soviets remain a generally boring faction to play. It seems, currently, that the lack of combined arms in the Soviet mid to late game is only less noticeable due to a few over nerfs on the Germans. We are close to pretty good balance again, but it doesn't make the Soviets a compelling faction to play, and until the Soviets get the ability to field combined arms, Soviet late game will always suffer in any instance where the units between the factions are properly balanced due to a lack of combined arms options.

There isn't such a thing like AI faction in coh lol. The game only has 2 factions. Calling the soviets an Anti Infantry faction shows that you don't have a clue about the game, no offense.

This is the same impression I get as well. The patch is fully excellent, like never before I am having great games with heavily mixed armies on both sides. And tactical play that is what gave Company of Heroes it's renown.

Op it I get the impression from what your saying you really need to work on your micro.
The 222 is one of the most useful units in the German arsenal, its boss against infantry and hard counters Russian scout car s and snipers. It can take an at nade and still have a third health. It can also take a full in the face at shot. It is fast enough that if you know what your doing neither of these will touch u the entire game.

T70 is also a most excellent tool vs German infantry and can take on pumas if you handle handle it right.

My first armour many games is su76 followed by another. Its barrage is invaluable and its at packs a nasty punch especially once your vetted these babies are beast supporting your main armour trust me.

Yes these units all can be taken out easily if your not using them well, with decent micro and awareness they are all fast enough that there is no reason for them to be destroyed at all.

These units are my most useful units in most games since patch and they are so fun to use.

Again work on your micro and awareness.

Op it I get the impression from what your saying you really need to work on your micro.
The 222 is one of the most useful units in the German arsenal, its boss against infantry and hard counters Russian scout car s and snipers. It can take an at nade and still have a third health. It can also take a full in the face at shot. It is fast enough that if you know what your doing neither of these will touch u the entire game.

T70 is also a most excellent tool vs German infantry and can take on pumas if you handle handle it right.

My first armour many games is su76 followed by another. Its barrage is invaluable and its at packs a nasty punch especially once your vetted these babies are beast supporting your main armour trust me.

Yes these units all can be taken out easily if your not using them well, with decent micro and awareness they are all fast enough that there is no reason for them to be destroyed at all.

These units are my most useful units in most games since patch and they are so fun to use.

Again work on your micro and awareness.

Sorry maybe I wasnt clear. This is based off of 1v1 game mode. Yes the 222 is a capable unit if microd well. But why? Why not just another Gren with an LMG? Unless your being M3 spammed but the MG42 is capable of dealing with this now.

I dont see the reward. I used too. Before it became so expensive and was buffed. Also I kill them left right and center when I play Soviet (Guards in an M3 still works perfectly). They have a short operational life span in the game. Grens dont.

The same goes for the T70. If you have a replay of a T70 taking on a Puma in 1v1 I would really reallly like to see it. Because when the Puma is out...T3 is a huge risk. Pumas are fast, durable, long range, great AT, and once vetted Target weakpoint and they can spam smoke. A well used Puma is NOT going to lose to a T70. And a T70 isnt going to escape a Puma. I would agree that WITHOUT a Puma available then the T70 has a short operational window and can escape threats like the P4. But its AI role can also be filled by the M3 that can reinforce as well.

SU76 spammed I dunno I havent tried to spam them so I cant comment. I suppose I could see it being OK but why? SU85 is a better choice in all aspects.

I dont think I said there was a problem with the Changes overall. I just think the addition of certain aspects has diminished the use of certain units and things like the ISU152 are just too good right now.

But as I stated this is my opinion. It has nothing to do with L2P so I would appreciate the lack of those types of assumptions.

I think ISU-152 scatter needs a big INCREASE. Bigger scatter means bigger chance to miss. I find it strange that an ISU-152 can accurately one shot a squad through bushes 100m away. It could one-shot under 30 range, but beyond that, it shouldn't. That extra 70 range should only be for taking out tanks. Sure it could hit a squad from far away, but it should by no means destroy it on a basis of nearly every shot.

To sum it up: bad accuracy at hitting infantry, accuracy mainly used for targetting tanks and buildings.

And in theory, it will drastically reduce one-shot instances from ridiculous range.

I think ISU-152 scatter needs a big INCREASE. Bigger scatter means bigger chance to miss. I find it strange that an ISU-152 can accurately one shot a squad through bushes 100m away. It could one-shot under 30 range, but beyond that, it shouldn't. That extra 70 range should only be for taking out tanks. Sure it could hit a squad from far away, but it should by no means destroy it on a basis of nearly every shot.

To sum it up: bad accuracy at hitting infantry, accuracy mainly used for targetting tanks and buildings.

And in theory, it will drastically reduce one-shot instances from ridiculous range.

Whats your opinion on Light Vehicles, Soviet Light Armor, Puma, and Teching rather than call ins?