ISU-152
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3 May 2014, 16:02 PM
#421
Posts: 301
Oh no, not another ziegheiler's "we_could_win" thread...
3 May 2014, 16:12 PM
#422
Posts: 440
The Soviet high command certainly "learned how to win" by 1944 but they continued to do so while suffering much higher casualties and equipment losses than the Germans.
This is particularly appalling and unacceptable considering that by 1944 the Soviet Union had virtually every military/economic advantage over their foes. They had complete operational initiative after Kursk, they outnumbered German forces by a healthy 4:1 figure, they were in a massive surplus of equipment including artillery, aircraft as well close to zero concern for basic supplies like fuel, ammunition, food etc that the Germans by this point were rationing frugally...yet the Germans were able to continue a symmetrical war (albeit a defensive war) against them until mid 1945.
This is a remarkable feat for a nation that by that point had no real allies, militarily or economically and was surrounded on all sides by larger, better supplied and equipped forces.
This is particularly appalling and unacceptable considering that by 1944 the Soviet Union had virtually every military/economic advantage over their foes. They had complete operational initiative after Kursk, they outnumbered German forces by a healthy 4:1 figure, they were in a massive surplus of equipment including artillery, aircraft as well close to zero concern for basic supplies like fuel, ammunition, food etc that the Germans by this point were rationing frugally...yet the Germans were able to continue a symmetrical war (albeit a defensive war) against them until mid 1945.
This is a remarkable feat for a nation that by that point had no real allies, militarily or economically and was surrounded on all sides by larger, better supplied and equipped forces.
3 May 2014, 16:34 PM
#423
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I just used the ISU-152. I noticed that the concrete piercing shells ability seem to ignore reload time. I was able to get off 2 shots in rapid succession by using CPS right after a normal shot.
3 May 2014, 16:39 PM
#424
Posts: 1702
The Soviet high command certainly "learned how to win" by 1944 but they continued to do so while suffering much higher casualties and equipment losses than the Germans.
This is particularly appalling and unacceptable considering that by 1944 the Soviet Union had virtually every military/economic advantage over their foes. They had complete operational initiative after Kursk, they outnumbered German forces by a healthy 4:1 figure, they were in a massive surplus of equipment including artillery, aircraft as well close to zero concern for basic supplies like fuel, ammunition, food etc that the Germans by this point were rationing frugally...yet the Germans were able to continue a symmetrical war (albeit a defensive war) against them until mid 1945.
This is a remarkable feat for a nation that by that point had no real allies, militarily or economically and was surrounded on all sides by larger, better supplied and equipped forces.
Except that in 1944, german production of everything was higher than ever before, and the soviets certainly knew how to win in 1941. Do you know operation typhoon which ended in a german failure? Or maybe operation uranus?
The war was allready lost after 1941, Moscow. Stalingrad was the final nail to the coffin.
3 May 2014, 16:52 PM
#425
1 Posts: 927
Except that in 1944, german production of everything was higher than ever before, and the soviets certainly knew how to win in 1941. Do you know operation typhoon which ended in a german failure? Or maybe operation uranus?
The war was allready lost after 1941, Moscow. Stalingrad was the final nail to the coffin.
I wouldnt say the war was lost in 1941... after stalingrad it was, thats why Hitler refused to pull out even if it meant possibly losing the entire 6th army, He knew there was noway for a German victory with a retreat from Stalingrad. The US was about to enter the war on a big scale and germany atleast needed a huge advantage on the eastern front to be able to face a new enemy.
3 May 2014, 16:59 PM
#426
1 Posts: 927
The Soviet high command certainly "learned how to win" by 1944 but they continued to do so while suffering much higher casualties and equipment losses than the Germans.
This is particularly appalling and unacceptable considering that by 1944 the Soviet Union had virtually every military/economic advantage over their foes. They had complete operational initiative after Kursk, they outnumbered German forces by a healthy 4:1 figure, they were in a massive surplus of equipment including artillery, aircraft as well close to zero concern for basic supplies like fuel, ammunition, food etc that the Germans by this point were rationing frugally...yet the Germans were able to continue a symmetrical war (albeit a defensive war) against them until mid 1945.
This is a remarkable feat for a nation that by that point had no real allies, militarily or economically and was surrounded on all sides by larger, better supplied and equipped forces.
+1 Like a thousand times.
The fighting spirit of the German army was incredible along with its technological advancement in almost every area compared to the rest of the world. The most amazing part this was this was a country that was totally broken and poor just little over a decade earlier.
3 May 2014, 17:02 PM
#427
Posts: 1702
I wouldnt say the war was lost in 1941... after stalingrad it was, thats why Hitler refused to pull out even if it meant possibly losing the entire 6th army, He knew there was noway for a German victory with a retreat from Stalingrad. The US was about to entire the war on a big scale and germany atleast needed a huge advantage on the eastern front to be able to face a new enemy.
The reason why the war was lost after the battle of Moscow because after Moscow, USA entered the war. Even IF germany won stalingrad and defetead the USSR, there was simply no way they could of built up a navy and defeated USA or UK. USA would of simply nuked germany like they did with japan.
3 May 2014, 17:04 PM
#428
1 Posts: 927
Except that in 1944, german production of everything was higher than ever before, and the soviets certainly knew how to win in 1941. Do you know operation typhoon which ended in a german failure? Or maybe operation uranus?
The war was allready lost after 1941, Moscow. Stalingrad was the final nail to the coffin.
If german production was higher in 1944 im sure Soviet production was still atleast double the production of Germany. Operation Typhoon failed mostly because of bad weather and exhausted units along with fresh welltrained reinforcements for soviets. That Soviets were able to pull of Operation Uranus was pretty amazing since germany had bombed the crap out of leningrad and stalingrad which was industrial cities with huge tank factories... i think german highcommand didnt know about that soviet had moved many factories further inland.
3 May 2014, 17:08 PM
#429
Posts: 1702
If german production was higher in 1944 im sure Soviet production was still atleast double the production of Germany. Operation Typhoon failed mostly because of bad weather and exhausted units along with fresh welltrained reinforcements for soviets. That Soviets were able to pull of Operation Uranus was pretty amazing since germany had bombed the crap out of leningrad and stalingrad which was industrial cities with huge tank factories... i think german highcommand didnt know about that soviet had moved many factories further inland.
Well, german plane production after 44 production was equal both to the USSR and USA.
german tank production was behind, but only because germany insisted on building overpriced tanks, german steel production actually surpassed USSR's steel production.
The real advantage with soviets was manpower.
3 May 2014, 17:10 PM
#430
1 Posts: 927
The reason why the war was lost after the battle of Moscow because after Moscow, USA entered the war. Even IF germany won stalingrad and defetead the USSR, there was simply no way they could of built up a navy and defeated USA or UK. USA would of simply nuked germany like they did with japan.
They didnt need to invade US, they simply needed to keep them from europe. Sooner or later the public wants peace. I dont think the German people would had surrended even if US would drop A-bombs since they didnt even surrender with soviet troops rampaging in Berlin with most of germanies cities in rubble. And also how many A-bombs would the US public tolarate being dropped in Europe? Many ordinary people in USA didnt want US to get involved in the war at all.
3 May 2014, 17:18 PM
#431
Posts: 1702
They didnt need to invade US, they simply needed to keep them from europe. Sooner or later the public wants peace. I dont think the German people would had surrended even if US would drop A-bombs since they didnt even surrender with soviet troops rampaging in Berlin with most of germanies cities in rubble. And also how many A-bombs would the US public tolarate being dropped in Europe? Many ordinary people in USA didnt want US to get involved in the war at all.
Well, if Japan with their absolutely fanatical kamikaze attacks and banzai chargers surrendered after getting nuked,germany would of too. Also, you don't need to surrender , nukes would simply screw up all logistical/infrastucture/command centers and german high command would be next to useless.
You also seem to underestimate the power of a nuke. A few nukes would kill more than all german civilian losses during the entire war.
As for USA public don't worry, they had this thing called propoganda too.
3 May 2014, 17:29 PM
#432
1 Posts: 927
In all honesty its impossible to know how it would have played out, germany was indeed in a bad spot but i still think it was a slim hope to get somekind of peace agreement in 1942 (especially if axis would have captured stalingrad). But then again, we will never know for sure.
But again, you gotta admire the will to fight of the German people, not many countries continues to fight basicly all into the reichstag.
Yes the japanese was kamikaze crazy too but they have always had a culture of Death before surrender all the way back to the samurai-era. The Germans was "western" culture.
But again, you gotta admire the will to fight of the German people, not many countries continues to fight basicly all into the reichstag.
Yes the japanese was kamikaze crazy too but they have always had a culture of Death before surrender all the way back to the samurai-era. The Germans was "western" culture.
3 May 2014, 17:33 PM
#433
Posts: 1702
In all honesty its impossible to know how it would have played out, germany was indeed in a bad spot but i still think it was a slim hope to get somekind of peace agreement in 1942 (especially if axis would have captured stalingrad). But then again, we will never know for sure.
Yeah, we ventured too far into hypothetical teritory.
Lets go back to the isu-152 .
What it needs.
1.Shorten range to 70-80 (along with the elephant)
OR
2.Increase scatter when the range gets over 60. (Meaning its not good vs inf at ranges over 60)
3 May 2014, 17:37 PM
#434
Posts: 307
+1 Like a thousand times.
The fighting spirit of the German army was incredible along with its technological advancement in almost every area compared to the rest of the world. The most amazing part this was this was a country that was totally broken and poor just little over a decade earlier.
Exactly. Never wonder where, when and how Nazi party got their money?
Three words : United States of America.
Vae Victis!
3 May 2014, 17:43 PM
#435
Posts: 2819
I just used the ISU-152. I noticed that the concrete piercing shells ability seem to ignore reload time. I was able to get off 2 shots in rapid succession by using CPS right after a normal shot.
GOOD BOY
!
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
3 May 2014, 17:43 PM
#436
1 Posts: 927
Exactly. Never wonder where, when and how Nazi party got their money?
Three words : United States of America.
so? Getting some initial money (loan) isnt the hard part, its making sure your investments are good investments.
You think Greece will be a new superpower now when EU loaned them some money? I think not.
3 May 2014, 18:22 PM
#437
Posts: 1130
Except that in 1944, german production of everything was higher than ever before, and the soviets certainly knew how to win in 1941. Do you know operation typhoon which ended in a german failure? Or maybe operation uranus?
The war was allready lost after 1941, Moscow. Stalingrad was the final nail to the coffin.
And another superpower on the western side of the their border so their resources where further split. But your indeed correct the germans did produce more tanks and material but this was but a fraction of what would be produced if the ami's didnt bomb the shit out of the german industry. multiply the amount produced by 5 for 1944 and you would be closer if germnay's industry remained intact. You ask why the germans didn't build so many tanks before? because hitler was idiot that didn't put the entire german economy to the war effort and germany remained with a peace time economy all the way up to 1943.
Operation typhoon is not a good example. the soviets hwre in the defensive still they lost in 1:3 in man. Operation Uranus only succeeded thx to hitlers egomania. Soviets screwed that operation up as well . Soviet intelligence believed that their where only 85 k German soldiers in Stalingrad. if the paulus was allowed to retreat 80 k soviets would faced 360 k of germans all the while trapped on the banks of the volga river.
horrida flamma bella
3 May 2014, 18:31 PM
#438
Posts: 1130
I wouldnt say the war was lost in 1941... after stalingrad it was, thats why Hitler refused to pull out even if it meant possibly losing the entire 6th army, He knew there was noway for a German victory with a retreat from Stalingrad. The US was about to enter the war on a big scale and germany atleast needed a huge advantage on the eastern front to be able to face a new enemy.
Dude , Stalingrad was not even the strategic objective when case blue started let alone vital for victory.
horrida flamma bella
3 May 2014, 18:32 PM
#439
Posts: 760
LOL look at these arm chair generals marvaling at the technical/military prowess of Germany
3 May 2014, 19:30 PM
#440
Posts: 440
I suppose we should marvel at the Soviet Union's heroic defense, where they, under any rational measure of attrition, could not mathematically lose the war despite suffering blunders that would have crippled any other nation for the first year and a half of the war?
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