L2P thread of post-patched Soviet

I think soviet early game is fine, just use conscripts as rifleman in vcoh... ITS RIFLEMEN WITH OORAH!!!

You can easily get in closecombat with oorah and conscripts win grenadier in closecombat now.. and if grenadier have LMG just molotov to keep them moving and you will win the fight, noneed to bring 2 cons for 1 gren


If they use assgrens just use ppsh cons, they win the fight if assgrens charge.

Scripts aren't like riflemen, not at all. Give us Bars that can suppress for 20 munitions. Oh wait no that ability was ridiculous. Penals now fulfill that role.

"You can easily get into close combat with oorah." I'm sorry who have you been playing against because the grens can simply move back and transition into another piece of cover like they're supposed to. By the time you charge in there like an idiot without cover, you will lose members of your squad and have low dps. That method is ineffective. There are better ways to combat grens, all your doing is giving grenadiers easy vet. LMG kills to much cons fast to the point that it is idiotic if you dont retreat and throw a molotov instead, but lmg comes significantly later so I really don't mind it.

As well with you're argument, bring 2 cons against 1 gren. That's fine and it's always been like that but really you shouldn't bring a spare con rather a vehicle or support weapon. Conspam is pointless and an idiotic thing to do now. Penals are now the backbone of the Soviet army, which to be honest, I like that. I wish they added a jeep and a motorcycle in this game to support my very early units. I miss the effect that if you bring in a motorcycle, it changed the course of the first engagement.

I think soviet early game is fine, just use conscripts as rifleman in vcoh... ITS RIFLEMEN WITH OORAH!!!

LOL

YOU LOSE LIKE 3 SQUAD MEMBERS WHILE
- PLAYING THE OORAH ANIMATION

- RUNNING IN

- CLUSTERFUCKING AROUND THE GREN SQUAD WHILE THEY TAKE 2 SECONDS TO DO ANYHTING

and by then your DPS is too low because of the half manned squad you have to retreat, and reinforce.

PLAY AGAINST DECENT PLAYERS. YOU WILL LOSE, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN,

Played against Budwise with the penal tactic, they are the only ones that can do something. I tried but after 30 minutes he had 2 tigers, while the only thing I could pop was t-34 and 1-2 at guns.
I am not a great player but I did my best, the MP loses from soviet side are double to the ostheer.
This is hilarious.
I did bad moves alright. But he made mistakes too, although I think he didn`t really care about the loses.

After that I decided to go con + maxim opener against ass grens. Its just hilarious as the only thing you can do is oorah and run away. My maxim was going like crazy from one side to another. And although I had more map control he still managed to pop 2 P4`s while I wasn`t even close to getting at least 1.

But I decided to give more tries to the soviets, maybe I am doing something wrong.
If I see an ass gren I run away, if I see a gren I run away if I have only 1 cons and no support.

LOL

YOU LOSE LIKE 3 SQUAD MEMBERS WHILE
- PLAYING THE OORAH ANIMATION

- RUNNING IN

- CLUSTERFUCKING AROUND THE GREN SQUAD WHILE THEY TAKE 2 SECONDS TO DO ANYHTING

and by then your DPS is too low because of the half manned squad you have to retreat, and reinforce.

PLAY AGAINST DECENT PLAYERS. YOU WILL LOSE, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN,

your just bad, when i say oorah i dont mean "look a grenadier on the otherside of the field, LETS OORAH!!" You still have to use your brain and oorah around cover, buildings and such.

Scripts aren't like riflemen, not at all. Give us Bars that can suppress for 20 munitions. Oh wait no that ability was ridiculous. Penals now fulfill that role.

"You can easily get into close combat with oorah." I'm sorry who have you been playing against because the grens can simply move back and transition into another piece of cover like they're supposed to. By the time you charge in there like an idiot without cover, you will lose members of your squad and have low dps. That method is ineffective. There are better ways to combat grens, all your doing is giving grenadiers easy vet. LMG kills to much cons fast to the point that it is idiotic if you dont retreat and throw a molotov instead, but lmg comes significantly later so I really don't mind it.

As well with you're argument, bring 2 cons against 1 gren. That's fine and it's always been like that but really you shouldn't bring a spare con rather a vehicle or support weapon. Conspam is pointless and an idiotic thing to do now. Penals are now the backbone of the Soviet army, which to be honest, I like that. I wish they added a jeep and a motorcycle in this game to support my very early units. I miss the effect that if you bring in a motorcycle, it changed the course of the first engagement.

what kind of grens are faster than oorah conscripts? I didnt mean charge from max distance on open field...

It may be unbalanced, hard to know AFTER 2 DAYS!!! saying "Its impossible" doesnt suprise me.. coh2 isnt famous for its skilled community..

what kind of grens are faster than oorah conscripts? I didnt mean charge from max distance on open field...

It's not their speed, it's the fact that scripts lose significant dps when they ohhrah because some of them aren't shooting and they are on the run. I know you didn't but another thing you don't realize is if cons go around a corner and get in close quarters, they will still lose at cqc. Relic obviously didn't intend this but poor design caused this. I'm going to quote a post from Jinseul.


From Jinseul, the dog:

"It's hard for me to estimate who's going to be the winner in each engagement when units just hop around like mad every time they get shot at.

statistically Cons should have beat Grens at close combat 2.86 Mosinagants * 6 cons = 17.16 dps. It should take 18.6 seconds to take out one 320 hp Grenadier squad.

Grenadiers 5.86 Kar98k * 4 Grenadiers = 22.72 dps. It should take 21.12 seconds to beat a 480 hp Conscript Squad.

This is at point blank range, but to look at other values.

Range : Conscripts dps | time2killgren | Grenadiers dps | time2killcon

0: 17.6 | 18.18 | 22.72 | 21.12
5: 16.14 | 19.82 | 19.88 | 24.14
10: 12.42 | 25.76 | 17.08 | 28.1
15: 9.9 | 32.32 | 14.92 | 32.17
20: 8.04 | 39.8 | 13.2 | 36.36
25: 6.36 | 50.31 | 11.8 | 40.67



So it looks like the Conscripts are supposed to beat Grenadiers below the range of 20. However, because units hope around being shot at and that units take more then 2 seconds to shoot after moving it doesn't really matter."

It's not their speed, it's the fact that scripts lose significant dps when they ohhrah because some of them aren't shooting and they are on the run. I know you didn't but another thing you don't realize is if cons go around a corner and get in close quarters, they will still lose at cqc. Is it game design and was intentional, no, it's because of poor ai. I'm going to quote a post from Jinseul.


From Jinseul, the dog:

"It's hard for me to estimate who's going to be the winner in each engagement when units just hop around like mad every time they get shot at.

statistically Cons should have beat Grens at close combat 2.86 Mosinagants * 6 cons = 17.16 dps. It should take 18.6 seconds to take out one 320 hp Grenadier squad.

Grenadiers 5.86 Kar98k * 4 Grenadiers = 22.72 dps. It should take 21.12 seconds to beat a 480 hp Conscript Squad.

This is at point blank range, but to look at other values.

Range : Conscripts dps | time2killgren | Grenadiers dps | time2killcon

0: 17.6 | 18.18 | 22.72 | 21.12
5: 16.14 | 19.82 | 19.88 | 24.14
10: 12.42 | 25.76 | 17.08 | 28.1
15: 9.9 | 32.32 | 14.92 | 32.17
20: 8.04 | 39.8 | 13.2 | 36.36
25: 6.36 | 50.31 | 11.8 | 40.67



So it looks like the Conscripts are supposed to beat Grenadiers below the range of 20. However, because units hope around being shot at and that units take more then 2 seconds to shoot after moving it doesn't really matter."

makes sense.. but when you molotov in closecombat, making grenadiers move they lose out on their dps and lose the fight. Atleast thats how it worked out in my games today.

It may be unbalanced, hard to know AFTER 2 DAYS!!! saying "Its impossible" doesnt suprise me.. coh2 isnt famous for its skilled community..

It isn't impossible. It is hard as hell now while Germans are easy mode. But if it is a match of 2 skilled players. The German will stomp the soviet. Just look at the Shout box and see what high skilled players are saying...

makes sense.. but when you molotov in closecombat, making grenadiers move they lose out on their dps and lose the fight. Atleast thats how it worked out in my games today.

Depends, it is very very very easy to notice a molotov. The only time if I get molotov is if I'm using a support weapon just because I don't have time to move. Only thing a molotov is good for against infantry is denial of cover, but cons will still lose if they deny grens cover.

Played against Budwise with the penal tactic, they are the only ones that can do something. I tried but after 30 minutes he had 2 tigers, while the only thing I could pop was t-34 and 1-2 at guns.
I am not a great player but I did my best, the MP loses from soviet side are double to the ostheer.
This is hilarious.
I did bad moves alright. But he made mistakes too, although I think he didn`t really care about the loses.

After that I decided to go con + maxim opener against ass grens. Its just hilarious as the only thing you can do is oorah and run away. My maxim was going like crazy from one side to another. And although I had more map control he still managed to pop 2 P4`s while I wasn`t even close to getting at least 1.

But I decided to give more tries to the soviets, maybe I am doing something wrong.
If I see an ass gren I run away, if I see a gren I run away if I have only 1 cons and no support.

Like you said in the shout box. "penal tactics can hold more that cons tactic, but still its just delaying the inevitable"

If I see agrens hit the feel, I just get a m3 with a flamethrower inside of it. Though it isn't effective since the paper is armor, it still works at times.

Depends, it is very very very easy to notice a molotov. The only time if I get molotov is if I'm using a support weapon just because I don't have time to move. Only thing a molotov is good for against infantry is denial of cover, but cons will still lose if they deny grens cover.

I didnt mean molotov needs to hit, it just need to force grens to move so they lose dps... and you mean cons in green cover lose to grens in no cover closecombat?

I didnt mean molotov needs to hit, it just need to force grens to move so they lose dps... and you mean cons in green cover lose to grens in no cover closecombat?

Like I said depends on situation. We both know that I never meant that "cons lose in green cover to grens in no cover in cqc" But that situation is rare. If it's grens in green that move to yellow, they will be fine. If the cons are in yellow cover and grens get out of cover, with my experience using grens this patch. They will eventually win but take a lot of losses

All these complaints of Cons/early game units are null in my opinion...

What is (and mostly always has) been the problem is that Soviets have no late game all-rounder, apart from the IS-2.

In every game I play I always feel that when going T3 or T4 I am always struggling late game. T34/85's somewhat fill the roll, but nothing equivalent to the cost effective, multi-purpose P4's and Tigers

All these complaints of Cons/early game units are null in my opinion...

What is (and mostly always has) been the problem is that Soviets have no late game all-rounder, apart from the IS-2.

In every game I play I always feel that when going T3 or T4 I am always struggling late game. T34/85's somewhat fill the roll, but nothing equivalent to the cost effective, multi-purpose P4's and Tigers

Currently I have no issues with Soviet end game. I just use the guard motor coordination tactics so I use mark target a lot since it's op

Ok guys, keep going with the german nerfs, we're doing good.

Nerfs? Why nerfs? No, please, german armor is so overpowered and so cheap now... lbetter this:

Upgrade to phase 1 - 200 FUEL.
Upgrade to Phase 2 - 300 FUEL.
Upgrade to phase 3 - 500 FUEL.

Panther - 900 mp and 450 FUEL.

Tiger Ace - 2000 mp and 1000 fuel

LOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL

^Seems legit.

All these complaints of Cons/early game units are null in my opinion...

What is (and mostly always has) been the problem is that Soviets have no late game all-rounder, apart from the IS-2.

That´s actually my thought also. The Russians have to decide between T3 and T4 - now this issue has been magnified by the increased fuel cost on both buildings.

The decision has to be made between mobility and anti infantry capabilities (T-34, T-70, Halftrack) and more static anti tank and artillery capabilities (Su-76, Su-85, Katjuscha). But if you made the wrong choice in choosing a tier, you are in the biggest trouble. You will lack either the AI and mobility or the AT and artillery. This is even hard to compensate with a doctrine.

Thus I think the Russians should get easier access to all of their tiers. I would actually prefer that those buildings were dirt cheap but the vehicles would have to be researched. This way I could have a T-34 and a Su-85 on the field the same time.

How about you get a T-34 and then you could (for a price) upgrade the chassis to SU-85/100/T-34/85 etc... bit ahistorical but perhaps an interesting system... Put the T-34 in at T4 and shove all our T-70 variants in T3... Perhaps also provide something at T-3 (like KV-1 or KV-85) to make it worth something as well...
It seems to me as well that this should work to a similar effect with the KV series... KV-1 can be turned into KV-1s or KV-85, or KV-8 or even SU-152...

Requires a lot but maybe worth it... Might add some spice to the game where Soviets can have a ton of specialised variants or masses of one tank model and then Germans have a more standardised approach...

I still think the best decision would be to throw out the idea of choosing one tier or the other.

Swap the T34 with the SU-76 (maybe increase its penetration?) and then make the T3 building cheaper/T4 more expensive.

Soviets would then have a mid game opportunity to push the Germans off the map with light vehicles or play it safe and go straight for the "heavier" vehicles (none of which are still as good as the German equivalents).

Job done