Marksman Squad

I posted this in the current Sniper balance thread (http://www.coh2.org/topic/13308/sniper-balance) but felt that it was too buried at the end and sort of in a different direction than that entire thread. As such I'm reposting it as a standalone to see what anyone might think.

I had a thought about snipers the other night. I think the fundamental issue has been laid out before in other threads that the current sniper just doesn't fit the rest of the game. There's nothing else that is "1 hit, 1 kill", disregards accuracy, is so expensive and fragile, and can have such an impact on the game. It basically breaks the rules by which every single other unit plays.

This was a big problem in vCoH as well, creating what old players will remember as the sniper wars mini game. People generally hated it or praised it for its high micro / tactical requirements, but at the end of the day the person winning the sniper war was likely to win the game. That old mantra of "he who controls the snipers controls the ATGs and thus controls the tanks".

In CoH2 it's not a straight copy, but the general issues remain. Following is my proposal on how they might be tweaked. Any numbers are purely a starting point or for example, don't focus on them.

If snipers on both sides were changed to say "Marksman" squad, that might allow them to fit into the game more appropriately. Basically a 3man squad with 1 spotter and 2 scoped rifles. The scoped rifles are for all intents and purposes identical to the script/gren counterpart except with their accuracy tables inverted (and maintaining their current extra range). High accuracy at long range, poor accuracy up close, and average at middle. Instead of each shot causing instant death with long aim time, they would have a moderate aim time and otherwise fire "normally" but deal increased damage on a successful hit.

The focus of this change is to preserve the sniper's role (long range AI and scouting) but folding it back into the rest of the game's rules regarding accuracy, unit health, etc. This change would hopefully also allow making the squads bigger to help mitigate the random 1shot potential that exists today and would make their impact and presence in the game more consistent and balanced.

Snipers as they exist today could be moved into doctrinal units if they really wanted to keep them, but at least then they could be evaluated separately as non core units.

Thoughts?

In your mind would these squads maintain the camp abilities of the sniper (along with I guess the freeze protection) or would they be just like regular infantry?

Also (I known the numbers were only for an example) but it would have to be ensured that the squads have similar DPS at range. Either give the sovs extra men like the gren/con setup or just up the rifle damage to be equivilant for these particular weapons.

I'm not sure if i like doctrinal snipers though just because of the imbalanve it could cause. Imagine the amount of QQ you'd see here if soviets could call in their sniper trsms and still have mortars/maxims/zis and in additon the german player hss no sniper at all. (The same would apply vice versa i guess but since germans love to whine im using them as an example here)

In general its a good idea eventhough im in the "snipers are fine the way they are" camp (although a unit like jeeps/motorcycles/battlebarges would be a good addition)

Edit: Another nice feature to add to these squads would be a munitions cost snipe ability kinda like the brits had with the recon upgrade in vcoh. This way the feeling of snipers is maintained plus if you really need to kill a particular unit (say hmg gunner) you can do it for a cost.

Sounds like a best way to never see the unit again on either side.
(that means it is a horribly bad idea)

In your mind would these squads maintain the camp abilities of the sniper (along with I guess the freeze protection) or would they be just like regular infantry?

Also (I known the numbers were only for an example) but it would have to be ensured that the squads have similar DPS at range. Either give the sovs extra men like the gren/con setup or just up the rifle damage to be equivilant for these particular weapons.

I'm not sure if i like doctrinal snipers though just because of the imbalanve it could cause. Imagine the amount of QQ you'd see here if soviets could call in their sniper trsms and still have mortars/maxims/zis and in additon the german player hss no sniper at all. (The same would apply vice versa i guess but since germans love to whine im using them as an example here)

In general its a good idea eventhough im in the "snipers are fine the way they are" camp (although a unit like jeeps/motorcycles/battlebarges would be a good addition)

Edit: Another nice feature to add to these squads would be a munitions cost snipe ability kinda like the brits had with the recon upgrade in vcoh. This way the feeling of snipers is maintained plus if you really need to kill a particular unit (say hmg gunner) you can do it for a cost.

In my mind the squad would function just like the existing snipers - camo in cover, freeze resistance, high sight range.

I like the munitions based snipe approach - at least then you're paying for temporarily breaking the rules. If it had a well balanced cost/cooldown that could be useful while not being over the top.

EDIT: I'm not wild about doctrinal snipers but I just threw it out as an idea. I agree that this could cause more problems than solutions, but at least then you could make it come at a CP cost where things like tanks were already around to prevent early game dominance. Or something like that.

Great, then those Marksman squad = new Gren and Cons

Does it solve anything?

Great, then those Marksman squad = new Gren and Cons

Does it solve anything?

I'm not sure how a smaller squad with 1/2 the health, no armor (in case of grens), no faust/atnade/molotov/oorah, higher cost and reinforce cost, lack of upgrades like LMG/PPSH, and vulnerable at close range due to poor accuracy would replace Grens or Cons. I might have overlooked something?

The problem it is attempting to solve is stated in the original post, but to TLDR it it's to make current snipers fit into the mechanics the whole rest of the game plays with instead of being special snowflakes.

I'm not sure how a smaller squad with 1/2 the health, no armor (in case of grens), no faust/atnade/molotov/oorah, higher cost and reinforce cost, lack of upgrades like LMG/PPSH, and vulnerable at close range due to poor accuracy would replace Grens or Cons. I might have overlooked something?

The problem it is attempting to solve is stated in the original post, but to TLDR it it's to make current snipers fit into the mechanics the whole rest of the game plays with instead of being special snowflakes.

Who need Grens while you have G43s squad?

Shazz ignore porygon ... He just spews crap in every thread where any kind of decent idea/discussion takes place. So don't let him destroy your dreams!

Would you suggest having these units train at the exact same place where snipers do (tier 1 for both)? If so you may end up not seeing many of them for soviets because t1 is quote lackluster (woth the exception of the sniper). As such would it be worthwhile to maybe consider haveing them be trainable for soviets from both t1 and t2?

Or maybe leave them at tier 1, but remove penals and replace them with the version of guards that were suggested in the sniper balance thread (by ozthewizard I think). Basically units that dont spawn with at weapons, but at t3/4 a global upgrade is researchable that would unlock good AT weapons for them. And then rework penals some and make them callins to replace guards. This may make soviet t1 much more usefull once snipers are removed. (These are much bigger changes than your suggestion but they may have good synergy)

You're basically pointing out that the current sniper is a hard-counter unit in a soft-counter game and you would like to bring it in line with the core mechanics.

I like your idea. It would be do-able and probably easier to balance in the long run.

I doubt it will be tried though. The choice to include snipers as they are was deliberate and Relic would rather try to balance the unit or its counters rather than make drastic changes.

ROFL @ above, you really a Mad Hater

Say in truth,

Now, he suggesting a squad, with 3 dudes, armed with a high accuracy high range weapon. That's mean they can

- kill men faster than Soviet sniper team
- more survivable than Soviet sniper team
- completely defeat the purpose of Soviet sniper team
- defeat the purpose of G43 Grens

Giving an example, as Ostheer
He can have this combination:

- a Gren or Osttruppen for faust
- a crapload of Marksman squad
- or an Officer for even more accuracy
- a MG42 at back for backup

This is even more disgusting than the Guard/sniper combo, cons, penals, maxim, 82mm mortar, sniper team just instant death to this deathball.

Assume if Soviet get this Markman squad too, it would be an all game long Markman vs Markman squad game, because Gren will die like flies too, neglecting the cover system and only base on LUCK.

This is a very terrible idea IMO.


Having small HP doesn't mean they are weak, as long as they can wipe out or force retreat anything. Remember SSSSS in 2.602 vCOH?

Back in vCOH, sniper mind game is so great and true representative of skill. Losing a countersnipe does not lose you the game. Even wehr went volks volks sniper MG start, you don't really need to kill that pesky sniper if you stall him well, harass the point well, lure him into mines or flankable position.

But in COH2, there is no workable counters of sniper that do their job well, or base on luck. That's the problem.

ROFL @ above, you really a Mad Hater

Say in truth,

Now, he suggesting a squad, with 3 dudes, armed with a high accuracy high range weapon. That's mean they can

- kill men faster than Soviet sniper team
- more survivable than Soviet sniper team
- completely defeat the purpose of Soviet sniper team
- defeat the purpose of G43 Grens

Giving an example, as Ostheer
He can have this combination:

- a Gren or Osttruppen for faust
- a crapload of Marksman squad
- or an Officer for even more accuracy
- a MG42 at back for backup

This is even more disgusting than the Guard/sniper combo, cons, penals, maxim, 82mm mortar, sniper team just instant death to this deathball.

Assume if Soviet get this Markman squad too, it would be an all game long Markman vs Markman squad game, because Gren will die like flies too, neglecting the cover system and only base on LUCK.

This is a very terrible idea IMO.


Having small HP doesn't mean they are weak, as long as they can wipe out or force retreat anything. Remember SSSSS in 2.602 vCOH?

Back in vCOH, sniper mind game is so great and true representative of skill. Losing a countersnipe does not lose you the game. Even wehr went volks volks sniper MG start, you don't really need to kill that pesky sniper if you stall him well, harass the point well, lure him into mines or flankable position.

But in COH2, there is no workable counters of sniper that do their job well, or base on luck. That's the problem.

To be blunt, I'm not sure you're reading this properly at all Porygon. Most of your points are directly contradictory to things in the original post.

Kill men faster than soviet sniper team? I specifically said that it would be a change to not 1 shot 1 kill. On top of that the suggestion is that they're not 100% accurate and can miss due to cover, armor, anything else that applies to every single other small arms fire in the game. This is not even remotely the same as SSSSSS. 6 marksman squads would not inflict 6 casualties every round, they would inflict up to 6 hits of some amount of damage per round. Like every single other small arms fire.

More -predictably- survivable is a good thing, especially for Ostheer. It removes the "pray to the rng god that your mortar round lands perfectly" or even the stupid countersnipe gimmick in vCoH where if you're unlucky, you're just boned. It moves them closer towards regular infantry but still more fragile.

Completely defeat the purpose of the Soviet sniper team? This is where I don't think you actually read my post - it's a complete replacement for snipers on both sides.

G43 grens still have faust, armor, better health, don't have the longer aim time that the snipers/marksman do, and are substantially cheaper both to purchase and to reinforce. I can't see how you would think this is a replacement or obsolescence of that unit, and even if it were there are plenty of other things you could do like give the marksman 1/2 capping speed to further differentiate them.

EDIT: To be clear, if people don't like the idea then fine, I am not butthurt about it. It's just an idea / suggestion. But failing to read and jumping to conclusions like SSSSS 2.0 is not going to get us anywhere. Thanks.

To be blunt, I'm not sure you're reading this properly at all Porygon. Most of your points are directly contradictory to things in the original post.

Kill men faster than soviet sniper team? I specifically said that it would be a change to not 1 shot 1 kill. On top of that the suggestion is that they're not 100% accurate and can miss due to cover, armor, anything else that applies to every single other small arms fire in the game. This is not even remotely the same as SSSSSS. 6 marksman squads would not inflict 6 casualties every round, they would inflict up to 6 hits of some amount of damage per round. Like every single other small arms fire.

More -predictably- survivable is a good thing, especially for Ostheer. It removes the "pray to the rng god that your mortar round lands perfectly" or even the stupid countersnipe gimmick in vCoH where if you're unlucky, you're just boned. It moves them closer towards regular infantry but still more fragile.

Completely defeat the purpose of the Soviet sniper team? This is where I don't think you actually read my post - it's a complete replacement for snipers on both sides.

G43 grens still have faust, armor, better health, don't have the longer aim time that the snipers/marksman do, and are substantially cheaper both to purchase and to reinforce. I can't see how you would think this is a replacement or obsolescence of that unit, and even if it were there are plenty of other things you could do like give the marksman 1/2 capping speed to further differentiate them.

EDIT: To be clear, if people don't like the idea then fine, I am not butthurt about it. It's just an idea / suggestion. But failing to read and jumping to conclusions like SSSSS 2.0 is not going to get us anywhere. Thanks.

You know the killing power of G43 Grens IMO, the Reds just die like flies.

If the accuracy > G43 Grens, then G43 Gren is obsolete, and my argument is valid.
If the accuracy < G43 Grens, this Marksman is a worthless squad because they have too much disadvantage.

Sounds like a best way to never see the unit again on either side.
(that means it is a horribly bad idea)

Yes, of course it would be useless then.
As you've shown everyone that snipers 1-hit-kill-mechanics are very important...

@Topic: This would work definately and would fit coh 2 much better. Sniper has no hardcounter, so it's just logical to remove the ability to hardcounter infantry. Much logic, actually

Yes, of course it would be useless then.
As you've shown everyone that snipers 1-hit-kill-mechanics are very important...

You'd actually watched the rep, you'd knew it was flamer CEs and penals there, you know, the stuff that AGs are helpless up to this day.
But nevermind that, I like how you made yourself look like an idiot with baseless assumption.


I really wouldn't mind snipers being removed from the game all together, but I'm not deluding myself and know this will never happen. Based on what relic said multiple times about snipers I'm not deluding myself with conviction that 2 man team will be changed or german one buffed in survivability aspect. Soviet sniper is T1. German one is addition to T1.

It will be endless QQ fest just as it was in DoW2 case in all the "Y ELDAR SNIPER SO STRONK! Y SM SNIPER SO WEEK!" threads.

The point is that there are no hardcounters to snipers. So, snipers should not hardcounter infantry anymore. It's that easy actually.

also, I couldn't watch the replay thx to the new patch, but the combination of "clowncar vs AGs" sort of intends massive usage of snipers. I apologize since I was wrong^^

Well, not everyone relies on snipers to do all the job while hiding behind guards...
And countering snipers is hard, not impossible. That is a difference.
Just like countering panther is hard.

The difference is still that Panthers do not 1-shot enemy tanks and can be killed with it's own hard counter (AT guns).

Snipers on the other hand can't be hard countered by anything. Only soft countered by arty, tanks or RNG.

Isn't there a thread somewhere already devoted to people bitching crying whining and bickering about snipers? I think so so why bring it here?

With regards to the suggestion in this thread I think you are (as usual) 100% wrong porygon probably because you didn't read the ops entire post. These units would not obsolete grens and woyld also not be useless. They would do more damage at range. But due to having to aim can be closed in on faiely easily as kiting will be difficult. Also if they are fragil enough and expensive enough to reinforce i cant believe people would use them over grens or cons as a standard soldier (well some people would and then thered be a thread here somewhere about how bad german marksmen are). They would and should be treated as slightly less fragile glass canons than snipers. I like the idea alot

G43 makes marskmans squads useless.

You could have them with actual sniper range but since the game doesnt revolve around mid-long range engagements i see them with less utility. It could prove to be an interesting addon but i see that role already being occupied.

I still think that the "best solution" is adding mp scout vehicles at T0.

Germans would have another opening (maybe PIO spam into T2) and Russians would have another unit to add into con spam. Might prove useful to soft harass mgs/mortars.

Anyway, this are just ideas for "mods". Everything said on the last days touch way too much deep core mechanics/balances things. It´s easier to add mid/late game units rather than T0 units, specially non doctrinal ones.

Sigh, I made a logical argument and you keep saying I am not reading so I am fucking wrong. It is you who need to learn to read, and learn to argue instead of striking straw man like a crying kid.

The biggest flaw of this idea, is either the squad can easily destroy anything, or easily destroyed by anything.