Call to action - Let's Be Awesome Together

yes keep doing it till it suits your agenda.

Magic The Gathering can be considered play to win, it has quite a high element of luck involve and you dont need super fast reflexes but it's competitive and has great viewership.

Do u even read?

Like I said in my original post all games with a high skill cap can be used as esports titles because they reward better players by default.

Why is Poker so successful?
It's also luck dependant. Still there are tourneys with huge prizes, because you can eliminate luck with skill and strategy. Magic also offers huge strategic choices, which makes it interesting and requires planning and skill to make decks that can deal with most threads = high skill cap = esports worthy.

RTS titles that are esports "worthy" from my view are: AoE II, SC/II, WC3 and probably a few more. Just compare those games to CoH 2 and you'll get the idea. (LoL, DotA/2 just quoting them for the sake of it... I don't really think they're real RTS. They still require strategy though).

@FatalSaint: Aimstrong, DevM, Aljaz etc. were some of the best players without a doubt, but did not draw a large crowd (I think I spelled it right this time ) in comparison to other players who streamed with webcams and commented on their gameplay in flawless English. Nevertheless, being extremely good at a game is definately one of the most important factors that decides the success of a streamer.

Completely false, those players, when they streamed, would consistently be the #1 most watched.

By the way, you might want to consider the spelling of 'definitely'. I know, it's a pretty tricky word, a whole four syllables- high school is tough.

I think that comparing poker to the games you list above is a poor comparison. With high enough skill in those game the elements of luck are pretty much completely eliminated. In Poker the element of luck is still highly prominent even at the highest level. How many times have you seen a hand decided on the river? A lot. I can take the exact example that you use above and turn it around to make an argument that CoH2 is more similar to Poker than any of those game and thus is just as competition worthy, according to your standards.

in poker a huge portion of the skill is based on how you handle the good and bad luck in a way like coh series.

but it also comes down to telling when a players got a hand and alot of other stuff.

I think that comparing poker to the games you list above is a poor comparison. With high enough skill in those game the elements of luck are pretty much completely eliminated. In Poker the element of luck is still highly prominent even at the highest level. How many times have you seen a hand decided on the river? A lot. I can take the exact example that you use above and turn it around to make an argument that CoH2 is more similar to Poker than any of those game and thus is just as competition worthy, according to your standards.

It was not the point to say "coh2 is like Poker". It was about IpKaiFung saying "lolol M:TG requires no micro and has luck in it but still it's esports so you're wrong with your post that high micro = esports".

Your point is exactly what I was saying. If you're skilled at Poker you can eliminate luck and it comes down to your individual skill if you win or not. That's what makes it successful. On top of that it's "easy to learn but hard to master".

You can play everything casually and you can play everything competitive.
The only thing that matters is what people who are playing think.
Don't agree, have a look at Guines book of records or fishing.

I disagree, highly skilled players at poker mitigate luck. But even at the highest level luck can still cause the more skilled player to lose - whereas in a game like SCII there is no luck at the highest level.

I understand that you were not saying CoH2 is like poker. That was the point that I was making, as they both involve significantly more luck than any of the strategy games you listed.

I am not saying you need high macro, high micro, high skill caps, booth babes or whatever to have a good competitive scene.

You just need the desire from the community, be realistic about your short term outcomes and most importantly work with each other to achieve a shared goal.

The desire is there somewhat for the CoH franchise but the other two points aren't. You can debate all you want about what makes a game competitive and you can see how frequently you moved the goalposts to suit your belief but the constant you will find in all the successful competitive scenes is what I mentioned earlier.

A desire from the community, be realistic about your short term outcomes and most importantly work with each other to achieve a shared goal.

I disagree, highly skilled players at poker mitigate luck. But even at the highest level luck can still cause the more skilled player to lose - whereas in a game like SCII there is no luck at the highest level.

I understand that you were not saying CoH2 is like poker. That was the point that I was making, as they both involve significantly more luck than any of the strategy games you listed.

That's not entirely true. There's luck in SC2; if you get lucky and scout your opponent first on a four-player map, you can defend some all-ins easier. If you get lucky and scout some obscure building rush, you can defend against it a lot easier. There might not be luck in the game mechanics in the form of RNG, but there's still luck. The point remains that good players know how to minimize luck-based situations and use them to their advantage, but the luck is still there in one form or another.

I think people get it wrong when they paint luck or randomness as this absolute evil, because it isn't. Poker has luck, but it's so pervasive that it ultimately has little bearing on the final outcome of the match. Anyone who plays or watches Dota 2 knows how much RNG is in that game; literally every autoattack every unit does is randomized within a range, and there are dozens of heroes and items with percent-based chances. But because the randomness is present in almost every interaction, and because Valve's pseudo-RNG approach limits extremes, it's hardly noticeable.

The RNG in CoH2 is a problem because its emphasis is so incredibly skewed. The difference between getting the killing blow on an expensive tank and missing it is so incredibly huge that it all of a sudden makes RNG look like this terrible, terrible mechanic when in reality, the only thing terrible about it is the implementation.

In poker, if you get a bad hand, you fold and play another. Minimal loss. In most cases in Dota 2, if you get unfavourable damage rolls, you miss a last hit, or maybe in some rare situations miss a kill. Again, minimal loss. In CoH2, you miss the last hit on a Tiger Ace, well, game is hard. It's a problem of scale, not a problem of RNG = bad.

1. "Personality";
2. Native speaker;
3. On camera;
4. Reasonable understanding of the game.

Dude, I know these are your subjective preferences, but I can't stay quiet about your chauvinistic suggestion that best casters should be native.

Not everyone playing CoH has English as their mother language, and probably, even those who actually are from an English speaking country don't give a shit about the accent of the caster, provided that he speaks correctly.

Sometimes is even easier for us, not english natives, to follow another non-native caster because he doesn't use too much slang nor speaks in a local accent hard to understand for us.

And, btw, I personally think that the camera on shoutcasts is dispensable too.


And changing subjects, what would happen in poker if you allowed players to buy DLC cards when their luck or skill was bad?
Do you think the game's strategy would increase? Or people would send the game to hell and would go to play another card-game?

Completely false, those players, when they streamed, would consistently be the #1 most watched.

By the way, you might want to consider the spelling of 'definitely'. I know, it's a pretty tricky word, a whole four syllables- high school is tough.

It is not false, as their viewer count is not correlated with their follower count, which is equally important in the long run.

I am dissapointed that you and FatalSaint continue to take this personal, as I have explained in multiple posts that this is not about an individual caster, but about the observation of differences. As a matter of fact, I have seen most, if not all, of TFN casts. Objective observation and analysis is a trade that very few possess.

Riddler, you've been proved wrong about this Native Speaker stuff. Drop it or take it to another thread.

I am sorry for going off topic, but I should be allowed to respond to those that took the time to respond to me.

That's not entirely true. There's luck in SC2; if you get lucky and scout your opponent first on a four-player map, you can defend some all-ins easier. If you get lucky and scout some obscure building rush, you can defend against it a lot easier. There might not be luck in the game mechanics in the form of RNG, but there's still luck. The point remains that good players know how to minimize luck-based situations and use them to their advantage, but the luck is still there in one form or another.

You are correct - this bit of luck is present in games like SC2, however minimal it may be.

In poker, if you get a bad hand, you fold and play another. Minimal loss. In most cases in Dota 2, if you get unfavourable damage rolls, you miss a last hit, or maybe in some rare situations miss a kill. Again, minimal loss. In CoH2, you miss the last hit on a Tiger Ace, well, game is hard. It's a problem of scale, not a problem of RNG = bad.

With this logic, in terms of poker, folding every time you get a bad hand means you will eventually win - which is not true. The game will eventually force you to play a bad had with the intention of making it a good hand - which it could turn out to be based of the flop - pretty huge but of luck going on there.

The same argument can be made in terms of CoH2 - A player that understands the chances of an AT gun getting that last hit on an expensive tank will do whatever they can to make sure there is 0% chance that AT gun can get a shot by staying away from it (folding one's hand).

I find that RNG in CoH2 has been fairly well balanced since launch (not talking about commander/balance issues). With skill one can effectively mitigate these risks to a high degree.

On the other hand the RNG is what makes CoH2 a company of heroes game. Now I never played at the uber high level in either game but I did play a lot of CoH as well, from launch and I can say that you could get squads wiped by a lucky arty strike or a lucky mine, there was a similar amount of RNG present at least from my perspective and experience with the games.

That being said I think there is absolutely room for improvement and I hope to see a lot of the issues that I have fixed in the next patch.

Do I also think that Relic and/or Sega made some poor decisions on the monetization/business model for the game? Yes, I do. This game has been out for just over 6 months I think, It took vcoh I'd say about a year to get to a really good level of balance and I also think that they can still change their model for the better, it could coincide with an expansion release, which I do not doubt is in the works.

In regards to OP - people criticize relic all day. But as soon as relic, gently, criticizes them in a very minor way, they lose their shit (not everyone, obviously). All he was trying to do was help guide the community a bit to help the game in a way outside of direct changes to the game.

I definitely think being a native english speaker helps, people can say Imperial Dane is proof that it's not necessarily the case but Dane speaks English so naturally that he could easily be mistaken as a Brit by non-Brits.

I think people really need to take a step back and look at how/why games become esports. I'm saying this mostly for Inverse's sake, but a lot of people seem to share his (wrong) opinion on this matter.

IpKai is pretty much absolutely right in that communities, at least at first, are almost solely responsible for a game rising to esport status. Let's take a quick look at DoTA/LoL/SC2 since Inverse seems to love comparing the COH scene to those games.

LoL/DoTA/DoTA2 - A quick history lesson for those that don't know, the "MOBA" genre has actually been around since at least SC:BW - at least that is when that type of game gained any sort of notable popularity. However it didn't really become a thing until WC3/TFT when Eul/Guinsoo/IceFrog heavily modded Defense of the Ancients. To keep this as short as possible I'll skip more in-depth history of these games and get straight to the point. DoTA itself has existed for ~10 years (perhaps slightly longer and been a true esport a fraction of that time). The community that grew around the game escalated to game to esports status by self-run in-house leagues, tournaments/other competitions etc etc. DoTA (and LoL/HoN as a result) are hugely popular esports titles not because any certain company did something special, but because the community poured blood sweat and tears into cultivating a thriving competitive community. The same can happen with CoH 2. Also side-note... DoTA was designed as a casual custom map for WC3/TFT... not to be an esport.

As for SC 2, it really rides off the accidental success of SC:BW - which is also a byproduct of the Korean community. Before BW, SC was pretty much a completely fucking terrible game. Sure Blizzard made some great and much needed changes in their expansion (see any potential correlation to CoH 2 here? although COH 2 is way better than vanilla SC was) but the game was still little more than a hobby outside of Korea and perhaps... 5 or 6 "westerners." BW was hugely successful because the Korean community (not Blizzard) dedicated immense amounts of time/money/etc into growing and promoting the game. SC:BW was never designed to be an esport, hell there weren't really esports around at the time. So again, the community was the catalyst for growth.

IpKai's example of SSBM (super smash bros melee) is actually perfect. The game was actually designed strictly to be a casual party game. It was *NEVER* supposed to be an esport, but guess what... the community stepped up and organized events. I love the example of SSBM (and other fighters) because I was a tournament level melee player and I can tell you first hand that the community gets all the credit for promoting this game. There were countless underground tournaments all over the country/people flying thousands of miles for tiny cash prizes. Once again... not because SSBM was some hugely popular esport title, but because the community loved the game so much.

So no, you don't have to design your game to be an esport, history will show that the contrary is true (although developer support, which we have for COH 2 can help) - most major esports titles today were NEVER intended to be esports (SC:BW/DoTA/LoL/CS/HS). Yes a casual game can be played as an esport. And ultimately it is in the hands of the community how things will turn out.

Finally a quick plea to Inverse, and others, that haven't touched COH 2 in upwards of 6 months yet delude themselves into thinking they understand the state of the game - please play some CoH 2 before assuming things. The game now is WAY different (and way better) than it was back in the open beta/early release. The game is fun to play, takes more skill than most want to admit (because it is easier to cry RNG/pay2win than admit your own losses), and is beautiful to watch. Relic really wants to support us as a community, so why not stop bashing the game or comparing it to titles that have been around for over a decade, and actually start helping grow a competitive community. Everything is in place, we just have to do our parts.

Finally a quick plea to Inverse, and others, that haven't touched COH 2 in upwards of 6 months yet delude themselves into thinking they understand the state of the game - please play some CoH 2 before assuming things. The game now is WAY different (and way better) than it was back in the open beta/early release. The game is fun to play, takes more skill than most want to admit (because it is easier to cry RNG/pay2win than admit your own losses), and is beautiful to watch. Relic really wants to support us as a community, so why not stop bashing the game or comparing it to titles that have been around for over a decade, and actually start helping grow a competitive community. Everything is in place, we just have to do our parts.

Sorry but I disagree here.
The game right now is less fun than before that disastrous "Turning Point" patch.
I'd say that we are back to the times when Opel Truck and Strafe were in every game, but now everyone just abuse Elite Troops and Soviet Industry.

The day Relic would want to support the community, they will start disabling DLC commanders.

Wall of text

A few comparison between those games and Coh2:
All games you listed was more fun to play(and have more depth) than this mediocre s**t you call Coh2, and games that are fun to play will attract audience and the larger the audience, the greater e-sport presence it will likely to have. Dota(WC3 technically) was even free (many free-to-play servers where available outside battle.net) enabling even greater audience.
SC had an enjoyable single player for its time, Coh2 does even have that, so it has no attractiveness if its multiplayer area lacks.

I think CieZ made his point clear enough. You guys just gonna "not want to see" the message?

Ciez - the problem is the game - to the majority of players and not the minority which unfortunately you are a part of - it just IS NOT FUN.

It's not enjoyable - I don't find myself WANTING to play it - in fact I haven't played a game in over 2 weeks now after each game was littered with "cheap" play tactics that stemmed from bad balance, bad DLC or exploits. It just became dull.

There's many broken elements - of which pay 2 win is just the tip of an ice berg that's essentially being ignored.

Till they make the game enjoyable for the majority - this game is done for.

You can talk all you like about esport or streaming or marketing or whatever - the core of the problem is the game - if it's not good on its own, then none of this matters.

Ciez - the problem is the game - to the majority of players and not the minority which unfortunately you are a part of - it just IS NOT FUN.

Where is your data to back up this statement? I can look at the amount of people playing the game on steam and then the number of people that complain and hate on the game on these forums and I would say they are very much in the minority.

Till they make the game enjoyable for the majority - this game is done for.

You can talk all you like about esport or streaming or marketing or whatever - the core of the problem is the game - if it's not good on its own, then none of this matters.

The VAST majority of people that play the game are not active within the community or even look at the forums. The point that Noun is trying to make is "How can we get those people that like the pzIV drawing to like the SNF fights drawing?" it's about bringing those players that DO enjoy the game and are not part of the community into the community.