Waffen SS comparison to Wehrmacht at the eastern front

Would be glad to further discuss about that

Sorry for the delay, I have not read a great deal on this and by no means an expert, so this is very much an outline.

SS Unit quality fluctuated over time, and was highly variable within the organisation. Their best were very good.
Their worst were very bad, in several senses of the word

In the early war they were not very important numerically, nor very good. Recruitment had to be carried out against the obstruction of the other armed forces who jealously guarded their "rights" as the sole bearers of arms. One of the reasons the Heer supported Hitler in the Night of the Long Knives was because Rohm and the SA were agitating that they would be the new army.

However, in an army that was short on motor transport what SS units there were motorised and as such of interest to the high command. However they did not distinguish themselves in the War in the West.

Basically you can divide SS Units into maybe 4 catagories:

1) What, for want of a better term, you can call "Regular" SS units.

Leibstandarte and the ilk

These are generally well equipped, well trained and well manned and stay that way throughout the war

While not necessary Nazi fanatics - whatever that is suppossed to mean - they were certainly competant and experienced. This does not make them nice people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane


2) Foreign Volunteers

The Regular Armed forces claimed a monopoly on conscripting Germans, and generally would not recruit foreigners. However because infighting was pretty much a Nazi specialty Himmler saw that he could build up his forces and therefore influence by tapping the resources of the conquered nations.

Preference was for "Aryan" nations, but this ended up pretty broad by the end.

In this you would include the Dutch, Flemings, Waloons, Danes, French, Norwegians, Swedes and Finns.

Very few of these people are enthusiastic Nazis and have their own agendas (the Waloons form their own unit because the Flemings have and they don't want to be left behind). They are generally however enthusiatic anti-communists and facist, as well as anti-semitic.

Initially distrusted they fight well

3) Anti-partisan units of dubious effectiveness.

Some of these are late war German conscripts when the rules got relaxed, others are Balkan and East European volunteers of various types. Basically only good for anti-partisan efforts. Some of them were very enthusiastic about their work and overlap with:


4) Utter scum

When you want to disgust even other members of the SS you call in a bunch of violent criminals led by a convicted child rapist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS

Nice write up! However i suggest to leave any political words (warcrimes) out of the discussion.

What interests me further are the differences between the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, in particular the lack of artillery the W SS had to cope with.

If you guys want me to write something about that based on your input here, feel free to ask !

What you want to write about?

Nice write up! However i suggest to leave any political words (warcrimes) out of the discussion.

I don't want to dwell on it, but I don't want to gloss it over either

In a nutshell:

1. NSDAP formed from right wing paramilitary groups in 1920s/30s

2. Original paramilitary wing was the SA

3. SS formed as alternative power base within party (and indeed were used to wipe out Rohm's SA)

4. By 1930s SS being formed into proper SSVT (military) wing, deployed primarily as camp guards (for example SS Div 'Totenkopf' was initially made up almost completely of concentration camp guards)

5. Waffen SS established and performed well, if not recklessly, in low countries and Poland 1939-1941

6. During WW2 massive expansion of Waffen SS as regime military units deployed in parallel to Wehrmacht, a most unusual arrangement. The big 'Germanic' divisions (Wiking, LSSSAH, Totenkopf, Das Reich etc) were the legendary 'elite' well-resourced and battle-seasoned. Quality of officers always varied from professional ex-regulars to party apparatchiks)

7. Massive expansion also meant dilution of quality. By 1944 majority of SS were foreign volunteers, a back-door way of inflating German troop numbers. About 10% of the SS could be considered 'elite' and these were always the 'Germanic' divisions

8. Hope this helps. The SS have fanbois on internet like Katana fanbois. SS was nasty political military force. Contained many brave, resourceful but ultimately mislead and often evil individuals. Let's not forget that.

In a nutshell:

1. NSDAP formed from right wing paramilitary groups in 1920s/30s

2. Original paramilitary wing was the SA

3. SS formed as alternative power base within party (and indeed were used to wipe out Rohm's SA)

4. By 1930s SS being formed into proper SSVT (military) wing, deployed primarily as camp guards (for example SS Div 'Totenkopf' was initially made up almost completely of concentration camp guards)

5. Waffen SS established and performed well, if not recklessly, in low countries and Poland 1939-1941

6. During WW2 massive expansion of Waffen SS as regime military units deployed in parallel to Wehrmacht, a most unusual arrangement. The big 'Germanic' divisions (Wiking, LSSSAH, Totenkopf, Das Reich etc) were the legendary 'elite' well-resourced and battle-seasoned. Quality of officers always varied from professional ex-regulars to party apparatchiks)

7. Massive expansion also meant dilution of quality. By 1944 majority of SS were foreign volunteers, a back-door way of inflating German troop numbers. About 10% of the SS could be considered 'elite' and these were always the 'Germanic' divisions

8. Hope this helps. The SS have fanbois on internet like Katana fanbois. SS was nasty political military force. Contained many brave, resourceful but ultimately mislead and often evil individuals. Let's not forget that.

Another informative but irrelevant post. Damn. Everyone's an expert, but the actual question was "how many SS were on the eastern front compared to wehrmacht"....for post after post we're getting political answers and primers on what the SS was...

Also, I must point out the "germanic" title wasn't really used for core german SS divisions like the 1st, 2nd, 3rd SS at all as you seem to think, but of foreign non-military formations, and foreign combat units, i.e. the entire "III Germanische SS Corps" consisting of foreigners even after wiking was sent to heeresgruppe süd.

I would also argue that far more than 10% were "elite" in 1944, and I think your use of "germanic" is misleading for the reasons above, but I guess we'd have to debate what "elite" and "germanic" actually means. For elite, there are many regular heer units that became elite not through training, propaganda, material supplied or anything else but combat effectiveness and leadership, while much of the elite talk these days are given because of how many units were formed precisely to be considered "elite" with better equipment and more numerous armor and supplies than any equal SS or Heer units , i.e. grossdeutschland, Lehr, and the big 3 SS divisions.

I would say practically every W-SS frontline combat unit was "elite" in their own right especially when compared to standard allied combat formations of equal strength, i.e. training and combat ability, man for man, squad for squad, company for company, most of them are deserving of "elite" status but go without the fame and "elite" title that the first 3 SS divisions get because of circumstances they were under more than ability or combat effectiveness, good examples are 16th, 17th, 9th, 10th, etc, etc, who were always outnumbered, often had fuel and material shortages, were bombed and strafed to shit, but still held out incredibly well in actual ground combat against overwhelming odds. Of course, the same thing could be said for many, many heer units as well... The problem with axis forces in general wasn't really the quality of soldiers, even in 1944, but the circumstances they fought in.

Well that's a pretty broad statement to be honest.

I remember reading up on the invasion of France, and the Waffen-SS suffered huge loses due to reckless attacks and the will to stay on and fight against impossible odds. Also the Wehrmacht were reluctant to supply the Waffen SS with good equipment as most thought of them as fanatics and poorly trained as soldiers.

That being said as time went on they were developed into an effective fighting machine, that was due to a number of factors such as finally receiving the latest equipment and superior armour in some cases.

I don't think that you can generalise the Waffen-SS as being "elite" there were certainly extremely decorated and effective divisions such as Leibstandarte, Wiking, Das Reich and Hitlerjugened. Notice how I left out Totenkopf, as I believe that they were destroyed and reformed 3 times during their life span. By the end of the war they were made up of SS camp guards, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine (Much like the majority of German units in 45' on the Eastern Front).

So, like all units in World War Two there were good divisions and bad divisions, although I think this idea of the Waffen-SS being somehow superior to the Wehrmacht is quite strange.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence, many heer units were more than equal to "elite" SS divisions...but the hitlerjugend were famous for being destroyed in fanatical but useless attacks, i.e. against canadian forces in normandy...How do you purposefully ignore totenkopf because they were destroyed three times? They also took part in some of the most lopsided battles in all of history and performed quite well.

The defense while encircled at in the Demyansk Pocket was some of the most ferocious fighting of the whole war and the stuff of legend, yea, the 3rd SS was all but completely destroyed there, but they also tied up 18 some odd soviet divisions that surrounded them and held out in the pocket for months ultimately winning one of the most lopsided battles in history, then of course, you have the actions earlier in Barbarossa up to Leningrad, and the later battles of Kharkov where the legend was born, and of course the crushing but fanatical defeat whilst propping up Kursk during the overwelming counter offensive.

Basically you can divide SS Units into maybe 4 catagories:

2) Foreign Volunteers

The Regular Armed forces claimed a monopoly on conscripting Germans, and generally would not recruit foreigners. However because infighting was pretty much a Nazi specialty Himmler saw that he could build up his forces and therefore influence by tapping the resources of the conquered nations.

Preference was for "Aryan" nations, but this ended up pretty broad by the end.

In this you would include the Dutch, Flemings, Waloons, Danes, French, Norwegians, Swedes and Finns.

Very few of these people are enthusiastic Nazis and have their own agendas (the Waloons form their own unit because the Flemings have and they don't want to be left behind). They are generally however enthusiatic anti-communists and facist, as well as anti-semitic.

Initially distrusted they fight well

The influx of foreign volunteers was indeed to ome extend fueled by anti-cominism. But simple facts like poverty in the occupied parts of Europe also motivated some to join SS. Another droup of volunteers were criminals who in some countries had the option to get a pardon if they volunteered.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that these brigades were good combat units. The Nordic brigades for example were wiped out in the Baltic States in 1944.

And it's not surprising when you consider that the were composed by untrained fanatics, empoverished persons and criminals.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that these brigades were good combat units. The Nordic brigades for example were wiped out in the Baltic States in 1944.

5th SS, 11th SS, and the bulk of III. SS Panzer Corps says hai. I think the 5th SS speaks volumes for itself, but the entire 3rd SS Panzer Corps was basically all foreign and fought pretty well considering...the baltic campaigns and the battle of Narva are great reads.

lol Esky i love it when you complain about the non topic posts here, but continue with non topic.

lol Esky i love it when you complain about the non topic posts here, but continue with non topic.

MVGame.

Another SS fanboi.

Another SS fanboi.

Is that directed to me? I abhor the SS, and everything they stood for ideologically and their lack of morality and ethics but that doesn't change what happened on the field of battle, real life wasn't a steven spielberg film or ww2 game where nazis just run around getting pw3nd...

You can't deny history. I think Esky's made pretty objective, politcally refrained statements so calling him an SS fanboi is ridicilous.

A distinction needs to be made between the SS and the Waffen-SS as the latter was referred to in the OP question. The Waffen-SS has been convicted as a criminal organization at Neurenberg, which has been widely discussed by various historians.

Anyways, I went through my library and found an interesting read on the Waffen-SS by John Keegan. According to John Keegan about 25% of tanks at the start of the Eastern offensive were assigned to the Waffen-SS, this number remained stable and even increased later on. As I scanned through the book I did not find any relative infantry figures to Wehrmacht forces, but it is save to assume it is less than 10% of the total German forces at the Eastern front.

Obviously, the tasks assigned to the Waffen-SS were relatively heavy compared to other parts of the German forces. This explains some of the heavy losses discussed earlier in this thread. The Waffen-SS is commonly compared to US rangers, in terms of eliteness.

I don´t get where you people have the information from, that Waffen SS was a elite force and took more casualties than other wehrmacht Divisions. Neither was the case (or better to say: it depends on the Division).
It was also not better equipped. One exception is the camo infantry cloathes, which was introduced into Wehrmacht later in the war.

I don´t get where you people have the information from, that Waffen SS was a elite force and took more casualties than other wehrmacht Divisions. Neither was the case (or better to say: it depends on the Division).
It was also not better equipped. One exception is the camo infantry cloathes, which was introduced into Wehrmacht later in the war.

A reason the Waffen-SS is widely considered as an elite force are the high enlisting requirements, which were a lot tougher compared to Wehrmacht requirements. Another reason might be the type of tasks they were given. These difficult tasks combined with relatively low surrender incentives results in a relatively high casualty rate, as you can imagine. The equipment does not refer to clothing, but to weaponry, vehicles and ammunition. In comparison to Wehrmacht forces, the Waffen-SS as a whole were more mobile, had a longer operational employability and were usually equipped with (then) technological advanced weapons.

High requirements, because the army was drafted out of volunteers. The whole supply chain was fully motorized, true. However smaller compared to wehrmacht ones, which meant the Wehr needed to supply them in addition. The fact that they were that mobile made them ideal for fast movement to push back breaktroughs, not because they were elite. All Panzerdivisions had that role in the end.
Which weapons, vehicles and ammunition did the Waffen SS had advantage of towards the Wehrmacht?
Afaik the TigerII was first delivered to a Wehrmacht unit.