Germans Anti tank capabilities.

So, i have been thinking over the last week about why i do not play this game atm.

Everyone is calling for a nerf to the T70/industry/T34 spam. The accuracy nerf if it appears might change things, but i think players will jst stutter step their tanks to negate this.

The real problem lies in the Germans anti tank capabilitys. There is no anti tank commander for them, PG shreks are useless unless in a house or pulled into battle after tanks have engaged tanks therefore stopping them from being one shot to death.

The last SNF contender bout showed jst how ruthless soviet armour is, first the M3's then the T34/85's, and there wasnt much support needed for these units.

Your thoughts?

I almost stopped watching after 5xM3.

I should have.

Then I wouldn't have had to see 8xT34/85s.

Instead if just spamming Tigers, Barton could've got 3 StuGs behind one Tiger sniping them T-34s - and maybe a Pak or two.

Since OMGpops buildorder is no secret, Barton should have known the t34/85s were coming, and then perhaps get himself some reliable AT sooner I think. Ostwind cleaned up nicely, but in the long run wasnt perhaps the best choice. Or backup his p4 with a pak or schrecks.

Instead if just spamming Tigers, Barton could've got 3 StuGs behind one Tiger sniping them T-34s - and maybe a Pak or two.

A) You cant buy 3 Stugs for the price of 1 Tiger.
B) Stugs only outrange T34/85s by 10.
C) The T34/85s would rip the Tiger to shreds with Mark Target anyways.
He didnt even need to Ram, though he well could have. (Not to mention that he also neglected the Commanders repair option)

The recovery from 5x lost M3s is what I find particularly appalling.
The 8x T34/85 spam with MT, however, wss just sickening.
Imo it may be necessary to swap out the T34/85s from this MT capable Commander, to another single heavy callin such as for example the IS2.

any replay of the game available?

maybe cap the map when you have an uncountered Ostwind instead of shooting houses MVGame

any replay of the game available?

SNF eventualy post it on its youtube channel. wich channel idk

barton played pretty badly this time out. he also was so stubborn with his all in infantry builds.

@Nullist

5 lost M3s wasn't too bad. They cost quite a bit of fuel but almost no mp only 80 each, so they are spammable of little consequence.

What was more of an issue was OMGPOP coming back despite losing so much infantry just before he called in the first set of T-34-85s. He pretty much only had 3 squads of infantry left at that stage.

That was what I found annoying.

And Barton had no counter to the T-34s readily available, even though he should know they were coming.

Well, all of this is very easy to say in hindsight, but you know, if Barton was a little more aggressive with that ostwind, then yeah, he would have base raped.

Of course, this is without any consideration of the meta and the players, I simply haven't had the games to know what to predict. Of course, the thing with overlap of commanders and there being so many of them means that, well, you never have a clue what's coming next unless if its as distinct as Sov Industry, Tiger Ace or the Opel Blitz commanders. By the time you know what commander they pick, a tank would have rolled out due to that commander already.

Yes, it is almost impossible to prepare for or spot a specific commander. But in any case, he should know that OMGPOP had about 270 unspent fuel

I don't think that we saw major balance issues in this game. Barton just played really really bad. Expecially his makro. Ostwind was his first fail. It was obvios that some kind of armor is on the way (omg is well known for 34/85's) . Second fail was to save up for 2 Tigers. Stugs would've been better. Not only due to the range advantage. Mark target is uneffective angainst many small tanks and 4 stugs should be able to snipe a t34 faster than you might think. Third fail: No teller and no paks.So what, why should he win without all these obvios counters to omg's strat.

Ostwind was his first fail. It was obvios that some kind of armor is on the way.

not really on the way, pop needed 100+ fuel still. ostwind was a great choice, the real fail was not using it to stop pop's fuel income or to shut off the remaining m3s immediately

No, it's pointless to use stugs vs mark target. They go down too easy. A p4 can lose to a t34 with mark target on and a stug has less health than a p4, so why do people expect this to turn out well from the stug?

Because he had 1 tiger, if he had spent the 200 fuel for 2 stugs instead of a second tiger he could use the tiger for the front and the stugs as support

Exactly, soviets have a few abilities to deal with strong individual tanks, that means that it's better to build up a few cheaper ones before calling something heavy. Then protect it with your life. Just calling a tiger on its own can work, but it's asking for rams and mark targets. Throw in a pak and tellar(s), things get difficult.


I play with guard motor (no T3/4) a lot, and it's hella strong with the 34/85's. it works well because people think they are winning when they push you off map and have 2 tanks to your zero... But they don't realise you are seconds away from your dual 85s clearing the field.

What people need to realise, is that this strat has no indirect fire above a 120mm.. And no off map arty.


So Germans do well when they set up a defensive position.. Pak43 can be a really good counter here.

If the soviet feels forced to teck to T4 for katys.. That's a lot of wasted fuel, and no more scary 34/85s

Because he had 1 tiger, if he had spent the 200 fuel for 2 stugs instead of a second tiger he could use the tiger for the front and the stugs as support

Sorry, but this is crap.

The frontline Tiger would still have been forced off by MT.
Stugs only have 10 more range than T34/85s.
This is a 4 vs 3 engagement also, meaning Ram can also be utilised for net profit.

And all of this is academic and misguided anyways, because due to the nature of the MT/2xT34/85 Commander, Pop NEVER EVEN TECHED.

This was a perfect exhibition game
A) Of how 222s are tstill not a considerable option for countering M3s, as indeed has been the case in ALL SNF games, inckuding Hans vs Devm. M3 spam is too strong. Most people dont realise how AI effective its MGs are. You can cause opponent fo have to counter each M3 with 2 Grens plus faust, which is enormous map control loss and muni drain, as well as due to the garrison and mobility, the Sov player chooses the engagements and can fill the garrison with what is best for that.
B) The combined effect of MT and the two callin (no tier) T34/85s is too effective.
I think this needs switching for a single heavy heavy callin.

I dont blame Pop for exploiting, there is real money involved after all, but 5xM3s graduating to 8xT34/85s is the lamest xombo Ive ever seen in all the coh2 matches Ive ever seen.

Some commander abilities require a certain tech level.
Assuming this turns out to really be a general balance concern after people have seen the commander (and not just a one-off):
How does requiring one of T3/T4 to be built sound? They could even decrease the fuel cost of T34-85s for this, it would delay them a bit and would ultimatelly add to unit diversity when using that commander(add the odd halftrack/T70 or Su85/Su76/Katyusha rather than just T34/85s). The delay would - assuming fuel income to be roughly equal - to get a Stug, so it would be Stug + P4 vs. 2 T34/85s, assuming the Soviet player goes straight for T3->T34/85.


If Mark Vehicle turns out to be a real balance problem, I'd suggest it to be either
a) changed to a accuracy/penetration buff (benefits normal T-34s, AT rifles and Su-76 the most) - However, this probably won't happen
or
b) have the plane apply the debuff every 10 seconds with a duration of 10 (or 11) seconds for each application. This would mean timing smoke could partially reduce the effect for a few seconds and it would mean the plane can be shot down to end the effect. It would promote the use of (rarely used) smoke from mortars, smoke pots and artillery officer and make investing in a Ostwind/armored car an interesting option, ultimatelly increasing diversity. To balance this out, I'd slightly decrease the cooldown.

However, notice the ifs. We still don't know if it will actually be a problem. The commander Pop used has the weakness of not having Ppsh SMGs nor any anti infantry call-ins. This means conscripts may suffer a lot and I think this is also the reason why Pop invests so heavily into M3s and flamers.
It doesn't look good but homefully there is some meta game trick someone can pull in the next rounds of SNF and stomp it. Pop is a good player but he never varies his strategy and if the meta would work correctly (guards in M3 >> SdKfz222), he shouldn't be able to to that.