The Ostheer Problem

well i am not a good player but i think the issues for the Ostheer is for me are following, so if i am wrong in one of my points please correct me and maybe give me some advice :

1: Infantry Combat

Grenadiers: for me it seems that grens without the LMG upgrade dont have a chance against conscripts in close quarter, i know they are actually not meant for cqc but you have no option to keep cons away from your grens because they can simply charge them and have the molotov to take away your cover on their aproach what you dont have as a german, then the Riflenade is also not an option because of the minrange and the long cast and fly time every half decent russian player will evade them

solution: make them t2 give them more nades (at nade, phosphor nades etc., maybe giving them diffrent upgrades for them) and give us back the Volks with their SMG upgrade and exchange riflenade for an standard nade so you can do something against cons that rush you with oorah (or atleast have something to throw back at them)

HMG42: well the MG42 was an feared MG it fired 1500 rounds/min and nobody want to cross its arc, in Coh 2 its useless it does not suppress until the cons are in range for a molo especially with their orah, neither does it kill in a short period of time, actually i think the russian WW1 Mg is better cause it does suppress faster its more mobile and does more damge (and the DSCHK is even stronger), in Coh1 you needed to flank an HMG of any side here you just run through it (also those had the same setup time)

solution: give it back the suppression it had, some might cry op op op but hey you shopuld not be able to run through it, it is meant to be flanked and that is easy with cons


AT gun: actually an very good at option it suffers just from one thing the huge AI capabilitys of the russian tanks sometimes t-34 just twoshot it

Pioneers: well a four man squad with MP40s that gets shot to pieces in close quarter combat by the enemy Pios with their bolt action rifles, sry but that is rubbish they only can build, even the flamer is nearly useless cause they cant even take a shot or two.

Solution: more armor, more Damage and make them more expensive (40 more manpower)

2: Light Vehicles

HT: nice support car, but the flamer upgrade is not worth it way too expensive and too easily countered,

Solution: making the flamer cheaper would be okay, also maybe give the HT an AT gun upgrade so you have an mobile at what can counter an t70 but does get killed by real tanks really fast


3: Tanks

Stug well the Stug is rarely worth it i mostly use it when i feel that there is an T70 rush comming but mostly i think an p4 is the better option.

Solution: giving it the bombard ability of the Su76 would be a nice thing to buff it and make it maybe more usable


Mines and other ammo using stuff:

the Ostheer needs lost of ammo to keep many thing equal to the russian equipment, especially mines they are mostly too expensive to use in 1vs1 cause you need the ammo elsewhere, i mostly see russian in lategame spamming all kinds of ammo based abilitys while as a german you couldnt bunker 500 ammo in early, sometimes i cant even fight back cause everytime i want to approach with inf there is jsut another fire arty incoming and you have to fall back or it will instantly roast your troops

Solution: make some of the german Ammo expenses cheaper, especially mines (or give them cheaper mines)

As related to the general balance concerns I see underlying this thread:

-Increase ZiS/PaK accuracy dramatically.
ATGs should be more or less guaranteed their first shot considering the difficulty inherent in aligning that shot. Camo is already covered in Commanders.

-Implement a secondary hp bar on ATGs and other field equipment so players know when they need repair.

-Reduce Shrek aim time, increase reload time.
Faster front load, same net result in longer engagements if armor is too stupid to reverse.
Also makes PGrens play more as a guerilla AT unit, moving in and out of LoS for shots.

-I think Teller is fine at cost. I have more issues with its buildtime, frankly.

-Fix T70 self-repair to full.

-222 improvement.

-Perhaps reduce Button cost.

-Relics proposed Scatter change, absolutely. Vehicle kiting/chasing of infantry needs to be brought inline, as was moving accuracy vs vehicles already previously.

-Stug is suffering. Inlight of indirect fire asymmetry, I propose Stug gets a 3 shot Barrage at the same cost and rough effect as ZiS Barrage.

-Ivans observations are accurate, and we should take him at his word as the T70 Grandmaster. Howver there is the slight irony (forgive me Ivan), that there is a real reason why you use T70s to such great effect. A-Team be famous, yo. Cant completely blame that on opponents "failing to adapt".

-On Munis in general. This may sound paranoid, but surely it is CERTAIN that both factions have the same Muni rate? I cant help but be repeatedly surprised at my Muni float as Sov compared to Ost. And I dont even dump more than 1 LMG usually in early game, nor do I consistently field FHT or (lol) 222s. I even try to keep RNades to an absolute minimum. Ireally really try to invest in Tellers instead. But nonethelss, when I play Sov, compared to my already deliberately minimised Muni use as Ost Im still floating Muni so hard I cant spend it fast enough. I cant even spend Muni fast enough as Sov (cue: Demo charges now), whereas even with my deliberately throttled Muni use as Ost, I am constantly starved and counting the seconds before my next expenditure. Just cant get over that "feel" difference.

I agree with most of your points Nullie but still the biggest problem right now is the very early game being too riddled with conscripts spam and molotovs owning grens too easily, that's what causes the sov early fuel advantage and opens windows for the T70 far too often.
I don't wanna see the mg42 buffed to OP again, I'd love to see a radical AI buff for the 222 and the HT.

@Tuvok: I dont see how Cons/Molotov are related to early fuel advantage, or T70 window, as you claim. Explain that please?

Sorry also, but MG42 is underperforming, especially considering its backline function. People need to understand that the MG42 needs to be strong, when properly setup to perform its backline task. It currently isnt. It has some serious drawbacks, namely the setuptime, the 1s longer suppression, and only hsving 4 crew, that are not being reinvested in it when it does its "job".

It needs to be "strong" when positioned and applied correctly. It currently isnt.
Too many drawbacks, not enough reward.

On the 222, I completely agree. HT Im fine with.

My "beloved" T-70 has been touched, scratched, burned, ripped, shredded, and squeezed, and is currently in the process of being UP'd with the anticipation of the new scatter patch. Weather I like it or not it will be "touched", I am simply giving constructive feedback on why it shouldn't be tampered with to the point of it being utterly useless, like a Penal Battalion, making the game even more dull than it already is.

Not only your beloved t70 vonnie but all tanks will be nerfed , next patch we are going to see the most awfull zis and maxim spam of the year as circlestrafing will become practcally imposiible . And kiting infantry will get more difficult

-Increase ZiS/PaK accuracy dramatically.
ATGs should be more or less guaranteed their first shot considering the difficulty inherent in aligning that shot. Camo is already covered in Commanders.

the only thing the at guns dont need is a buff , players shouldnt expect to kill tanks with at guns unless they have hampered their mobility and from my experience 99% of the times thats the case , what they do need is a holdfire button or better prioritasation in targeting .

I dont understand you ppl you complain about conspam vs grenspam and yet all changes that are proposed make that even more vaible

It's the Soviet Industry. Whenever I have a chance to play a game without the new commanders the game itself seems to be completely different and more equal. Unfortunately we probably going to see more unbalanced commanders with new patch in the next month so I lost my hope for this game.

@Tuvok: I dont see how Cons/Molotov are related to early fuel advantage, or T70 window, as you claim. Explain that please?

what? right now cons spam owns the early game and gives soviets the fuel advantage.
when soviets have fuel advantage T3 becomes viable and the window for the T70 widens.
soviet industry amplifies that.
balancing the early game will result in less T70s.
What I mean is that if soviets managed to have early fuel advantage they DESERVE to have that T70 window.
It's just too easy right now to have that advantage.

Email this to beta testing forum or relic

what? right now cons spam owns the early game and gives soviets the fuel advantage. when soviets have fuel advantage T3 becomes viable and the window for the T70 widens. soviet industry amplifies that. balancing the early game will result in less T70s. What I mean is that if soviets managed to have early fuel advantage they DESERVE to have that T70 window. It's just too easy right now to have that advantage.

How exactly, in practise, is that too easy?
Specifically related to Con spam as you state.
Elaborate please.

I don't feel a T-70 a problem.

And T-70 is good in a little moment of the game, or you have loose control map .... and it's normal you loose.

If he spam T-70, it's just you have no fuel, so you are normaly dead T-70 or not.

Anf if Axis have mine like russians, i feel this not a good thing ... seriously i find the game fine like this, except Tiger ace.

And maybe relic need to make something for broke spam in this game ... when i see a game spam grens vs spam conscripts, it's boring and boring ...

And one Schrek only for PZgren, it's a joke ?

They become so extremly powerfull FailFish ... I want not a spam of pzgren + 1 schrek 1 game ... and it's become maybe not balance.

When i see topic like this, for me, it's not units the problem ... but it's just you have Fail the control map ... If the guy spam t-70 vs you, it's just you have not the control of the map i find.

Non-Industry T70s in no way limit map control. Infact they improve it by bringing a mobile rapid response hard AI counter that not only can support Sov map control units but hard force Ost infantry units off.

Your Sov bias, loveglorypeace, is enormous,

Me, i just prefer Coh 2

Dem soviet tanks get to cap territory with vet, so there's always that to keep in mind with soviet armor contributing to map control. It's one of the most powerful features of the Soviet faction IMO.

I think we need a 4 dolla doctrine that allows grens to buy a single panzershrek at 1 cp for 70 munis

The Pak vet 1 ability always seems to misfire for me whenever I use it. Have you had the same problem?

Havent been using paks so much but when i did i think it was working. but i havent payed attention so i am not sure.

Havent been using paks so much but when i did i think it was working. but i havent payed attention so i am not sure.

I have never had one mis-fire, but they always fire very late. Last game I used it with a stug on a T34, the first shot that came after I used the ability was a regular shot, then, my main gun became wrecked, and then, somehow, the HEAT round went of and stunned the T34.

I agree in principle but not with the solutions.

Let's look at the "light" AT options for both -

Soviets - Guards, Partisans, M42 light AT gun

Ostheer - AP rounds on the MG42, Upgunned SC..?


Solution - give them doctrinal light AT support to delay/soft counter the T70

Soviets have many things to deal with the FHT so Ostheer should have some kind of soft counter to the T70 (preferably infantry related).

Or perhaps even increase the effective-ness of the upgun, with a cost increase.

I also think panzerfausts should do more damage but not cause engine criticals but that's another matter...

Dem soviet tanks get to cap territory with vet, so there's always that to keep in mind with soviet armor contributing to map control. It's one of the most powerful features of the Soviet faction IMO.

It's easy to think so, in fact I thought this ability would be pretty useful.

Only problem is that any Soviet vehicle not moving around and flanking is going to get caught out and killed by superior German AT units. And, if you went B3 for T-34s and the T-70, then you're going to need those tanks moving around since that's the only mobile AT.

It is useful for capping back points and exploiting situations where you're already winning, but in an even situation, if you're sending a soviet tank to cap, it just means it's a target for an AT gun from out of the fog, shrek ambush, or P4 to chase it down.

It's useful, but not incredibly powerful.

My "beloved" T-70 has been touched, scratched, burned, ripped, shredded, and squeezed, and is currently in the process of being UP'd with the anticipation of the new scatter patch. Weather I like it or not it will be "touched", I am simply giving constructive feedback on why it shouldn't be tampered with to the point of it being utterly useless, like a Penal Battalion, making the game even more dull than it already is.

-In the case of multiple T-70s after holding off one with shrecks in a hf, you can easily go for a Stug as it costs the same as getting to the point of purchasing a 2nd or 3rd T-70(when using Soviet Industry). (Or go for the cheaper stug(get more than one) available in one of the assgren doctrines). Tellers can be placed in great spots, for example on semoisky you can place them on the two paths leading out of the enemy base(for the summer version), as well as place them in front of paks, next to paks, or near where you'd like to position your troops as the T-70 will most likely engage you in this area and you have a higher probability of it hitting your teller mine.

First, im a big fan of you and congratz with your result in SNF

2nd and back to the subject, i think the only problem that we see it, its in the cost, this light tank its to effective for his cost.

i think like you said, the stug its a very good option to counter this, but its a big gamble for german player going with this tank, im bored of build pak to counter this tank, like other guys said, ammo its our best way, but all its overpriced.. (plz im not crying ok?, hahaha) tellers mines, shrecks... i generally chose the stug way in 3v3 or 4v4 cuz i know my partners go p4 or panthers.. but 1v1 its to risky.

3rd i dont know why i always read all your post with the voice of bane in my head.. damn it!

thanks and peace