If you care about COH2 read this

I am trying to give the most detail explanation why I think COH 2 needs improvements to make it the great game it deserves to be.

I will address all issues I think are relevant but try to keep it as brief as possible. My main goal is for relic devs to read this, for the penny to drop and for them to finally make the necessary changes to make COH2 worthy of its name.

Why You Should Hate DOW2

As a quick intro I want to explain why one of the biggest problems for coh2 is the game engine. It was directly ported from DOW2 which was a rts that tried to make a real time strategy game off a turn base board game ( Warhammer 40K). Things such as “scatter” the reduced cover mechanic and the outrageous RNG are all direct result of this.

In the board game scatter is determined by the roll of the dice, and that’s exactly how coh2 feels, it’s up to fate or the “RNG god” when it should be 98% about clever strategy, teching, positioning and execution and 2% random chance for a bit of flavour.

In war hammer 40k its about the army you have and nothing to do with the battlefield or strategic choices ( such as teching for example) so for DOW2 the engine was fine. But to take this simplistic approach and apply it to COH is a grave mistake as the game was all about choices, in tech, in build orders and smart manoeuvres, positioning and strategy as well as map control, use of terrain and pop cap/ map denial ( just to name a few)

In coh2 weapons either too much damage or too little you regularly see pios/engies getting crazy flame crits on superior infantry, or a mine do a squad wipe or nothing at all. This goes hand in hand with some of the on screen effects such as arty, or mortar strikes that hit but do nothing all the while having massive on screen explosions.

vCOH used a much more advanced engine that took into account physics, multiple variables, complex damage tables, proper cover mechanics, and felt much more “real” ( after all it was not based on a turn based game, which in turn is set in a sci fi univers 40k years into the future – so in short it had the real world in mind when the game was designed) and it did an incredible job of it.

Things just worked. Play was much more dynamic and exciting and way less frustrating. The small element of chance combined with an incredible in depth “behind the scenes” amount of variables set the scene for incredible dynamic “life like” play, strategy and in game moments – it was a joy to play and even bigger joy to watch masters at work.
COH 2 over simplifies this and the RNG is actually one of the worst aspects – it makes incredible vcoh players look bad and that is saying something.

In vcoh units moved well allowing for much more “surgical strikes” which would mean just by using your troops effectively you could create crippling blows in one fight, just by doing a great flank, supported by arty and infantry play. This sort of stuff is just not possible to execute as effectively in the DOW2 engine.

The engine influence also covers how units interact with explosions and other environmental factors which vcoh nailed completely and coh2 fails to do so. Compare any off map strike in vcoh and its effects on troops and the environment and the same with coh2 and you get the picture. A simple 105mm howitzer in vcoh created incredible destruction to the terrain and troops alike sending pieces of them flying through the map, and something like 205mm in coh2 does not of that in fact if it hits the explosion looks nice but infantry simply lie down on the ground dead or are not affected - there is a serious disconnect between action and reaction.

Why Game Balance Should be The Last Thing You Worry About

I want to once and for all dispel the myth that “balance” is somehow the one thing that coh2 needs for it to be successful.

An RTS does need balance but more importantly it needs to have a level of depth and strategy – balance comes later.

Realistically balance has almost nothing to do with peoples anger at the game, weather they know it or not. Balance is something that coh never really had 100% – but it was still the best RTS of all time.

It was exciting, there were so many ways to victory and it felt amazing to play but things were not “balanced” but superior players used the 1000 different options to create game winning situations but that is because the game allowed for it.

How do you consider a 270 mp early game unit like the riflemen to absolutely wipe the floor with vet 3 grens or stormtroopers ( after sinking multiple hundred fuel and MP to upgrade them) that’s not “balanced” it’s not even, but by god was it great.

Even with the brits and PE the game was still incredible – yes there were some cheesy strats but it was still a fantastic game, even waiting months for patches to fix the problems didn’t seem as bad as the state of the game now.

COH 2 is very different to this, there is hardly more than a few ways to win 1 way is through VP the other is basically tank rushing for both sides as (oppose to proper MP bleed where attrition simply got too much for one army, real resource denial via out capping and map control, 1 decisive engagement, good mine play, better teching giving more flexibility ect ect)

A tank rush could be crippled in seconds in vcoh ( refer to FLN cast where a 5 or 6 m10 tank rush was wiped out by some mines in about 5 seconds while trying to flank a king tiger on langres)

Balance is something that slowly happens over time and allows for different strategies to appear. The biggest problems with coh2 have almost nothing to do with balance and everything to do with game mechanics and developer decisions.

The only thing 3 dimensional about coh2 is its graphics.

Guess what? Game mechanics can be changed and developers can and regularly update them, so it’s time to worry less about some questionable DLC commanders ( tbh even OP commanders could and would be defeated in vcoh by clever players as there were so many options, providing the other player was a lower quality or just made the wrong move) and start showing them what we really need in the game to make it a win- win for all of us.

If the game mechanics were up to scratch most fans would not even be bothered by op commanders, they would get annoyed for sure but still love the game – that’s not happening right now.

Have you ever heard of a game where 95% of the original “pro players” which have dedicated hundreds if not thousands of hours into a game simply stop playing the sequel?
What kind of changes do you think would need to happen for diehard fans to abandon their favourite game? Yep exactly - drastic changes which ruin a incredible franchise.
Even if balance was perfect right now coh2 as it stands would be inferior to vcoh in almost every way, here are what I think some of the other big issues with the game:

• Watering down AT gun effectiveness – due to damage but mostly to the way it selects targets, its accuracy and its ability for 1 gun to be able to stop a tank dead in its tracks and cause it to retreat. This had a lot to do with the speed it acquired targets, its ability to move back and forth quickly and without any fuss and the ability for the gun to turn itself at at a reasonable speed. Crap at guns make the pathetic AT nade/ faust mechanic a necessary reality which is ruing the game.

• Mortar mechanics – in vcoh for these weapons to be successful you needed to have LOS, and be proactive ( ie select your targets via barrage and not let it passively shoot) as well as have a good feel for the sort of scatter, and area of effect. This could mean you could lure enemy inf into mortar killzones. Having actual 3d models of the mortar rounds as it flies out does 2 things, it shows your enemy your approximate location, shows the parabolic arc of fire which enable you to judge shots after a while and give your enemy an indication where the rest of the ordinance might fall and therefore the ability to move out of the way to reward good micro and manoeuvring ( or where to do counter artilelly) This aspect is completely lost and mortars are just passive units that do completely random damage.

To offset this while in “passive mode” all mortars should have a much slower rate of fire to encourage active use and good ordinance placement and discourage players to build them and let them just sit on their own as well as bringing back the distance to accuracy measurement ( closer you are the tigher the “groupings” ) and the 3d modelled mortar round that actually flies through the air in a arc and drops on the ground.

• Rework the crit system for flames, small arms ( more steady predictable damage with chances to crit rather than RNG crit being the way damage actually happens) ( latest patch goes some way to help) and vehicles ( for vehicle vs vehicle)

• Bring back physics and dynamic environment and real weapon effects that have a proportionate action – to reaction. ( go watch arty in vcoh, mines, tank shots into infantry or my favourite the goliath to get the idea) The simplistic DOW engine is not doing coh the justice it deserves and its all to do with the devs being lazy and ripping us off and nothing to do with “balance”. The removal of physics add nothing positive to the game yet it detracts a lot for example. This was ass as DOW2 did not support these features so they were omitted hoping no one would notice.

• Add in different reverse speed to vehicles, as well as front, rear side armour. Bring back proper damage tables ( or something like it)

• Too much resources – lack of MP bleed especially for soviets. Rework the resource system as currently there is no MP bleed at all, it dumbs down the game to a constant spam fest were your actions on the field have almost nothing to do with your enemies economy.

• Fast capping means that map control means much less in coh2 – before it was possible to have a strategy to avoid combat ( to a point) and cap around your opponent which was significant way to “fight back” when you were in a bad position, as reclaiming territory took much longer and spread out enemy forces. This led to ambushes and other clever play scenarios which meant you could earn your way back onto the field.

One option is to possible reduce the speed to capping by 50% and only give it full speed if your units actively “cap” like they did in vcoh, which would then leave them in danger of being attacked as they do so, taking more damage. There would be a big risk reward as capping the map faster would give an advantage as well as risk higher casualties.

• Streamlined I.e oversimplified teching options which leads to simple strategies i.e spam. Reword teching – change the at nade/ faust dynamics and make them fuel heavy tech options to delay other tech. Other tech ideas could come from the pros.

• Lack of the ability for one unit to be nerfed against another unit specifically but remain effective against everything else... make SU 85 not be able to kill P grens but leave its ability to kill pios and grens as it is for example. This limits some units viability IMO – for instance you could make the sturmpanzer less susceptible to at guns and more so to t34s to encourage its build for example or something to that effect ( its just a example to get a point across). It’s like having the marderIII dominate tanks but not be able to hit inf ect therefore denying spamming of just one unit as a valid tactic.

• Terrible targeting of vehicles – this is especially bad for AT guns, which should autolock and fire at vehicles and ignore infantry for the most part. Same with tanks when given a target should stick to that until they destroy it not flip flop between other units

• Making AT nade ? faust a tech choice – should be upgradable but for a much more substantial cost which would delay tech of some sort – I think soviets having it as an upgrade should be made much more expensive but to substitute this they should have light at guns for the early game ost vehicles. Both these abilities should be kiteable and able to be “dodged” or stopped in some way to encourage a superior players to use vehicles well.

They should also be made more like vcoh where it’s a “soft counter” ie does moderate damage to vehicles with a chance to do engine damage once the vehicle health is low enough, and even smaller chance to do heavy engine damage.

• More robust vehicle damage model not just engine damage and heavy engine damage, different reverse speeds as well for that matter – to make the SU more vulnerable it could be slow to reverse but keep all its other stats. This would punish over extending ( I use su 85 as an example – it’s a unit I hate don’t take it to heart) or lets say give stug a fast reverse speed to make the unit more vible ect ( just for examples how it can be applies im not saying that should actually be the case)

• Some historical influence on the game – ok ost front was the most important part of warfare in modern history if not of all time. It was brutal, massive never-seen-before scale with the end goal of making a huge fascist world superpower ( and the removal of races and countries from human history) and they way history is treated in the game singleplayer is a joke to say the least.. full of completely inaccurate stereotypes and Hollywood hogwash.. but I am aiming at multiplayer and the commanders or even armies do not seem to represent the war on any scale, nothing like coh1 did anyway. Im not suggesting to add in any content that glorifies genocide and other aspects of ww2 but more about the gravity, scale of the combat and strategy and brutal finesse of both armies.

In vcoh we had terror which was reminiscent of ss doctorine, propaganda and nazi terror weapons, defensive which was reminiscent of the fortress that Hitler ordered the whermacht to make in france to stop allied advances on the beaches, same with us based army with allied tank general recovering tank losses and inexhaustible supply chain once it got going ect.

There is no strong theme or any sort of “realisms” in coh2 which in my opinion ruins the fun, immersion and strategy. Want a good example? How about the biggest threat to the whermacht being some farmers in uniform with a bottle of burning alcohol, or a few months ago it was a bunch of female snipers in the back of a US truck.. these sort of things made no sense and it stems from not capturing how the soviet army defeated the germans ( it wasn’t by sending guys without guns to do human wave tactics or throwing flaming bottles) it was by being big enough, and having enough resources to take damage and then quickly learn and adapt enemy tactics and use them against the invading force ( in a nutshell) but this isn’t how the game plays out at all.
That’s a bit of a rant but what I want is some more defined commanders which use some historical aspects to theme the game – if ever so slightly.

• Fix cover mechanics to make it on par with vcoh. Same with suppression ( suppression from explosions for example)

• Make arty how it was in vcoh – it served a real purpose ( targeting static defences, AT guns, snipers ect and currently it does none of this with effectiveness, it’s about slow blanket fire to a wide area and not more precise strikes against a small area) the old way of firing enables a skilled player to recon an area and send more accurate arty fire onto enemy positions, or time arty correctly to intercept moving troops. This fire mode where it’s a barrage of 4-6 quick rounds could be a vet 1 or 2 unlock.. but it does need to be included.

Thats it from me – please share this with relic and leave your own opinions below – I want this to be a good reference point for relic with the communities best ideas in one convenient place. If you don’t agree that cool but please don’t spam, or disrupt the thread you will only dilute the message and prevent coh2 from improving.

If I didn’t believe that coh2 could be salvaged i wouldn’t be posting it, I know they game has incredible potential and with the right action it will be the amazing game it deserves to be.

I understand that making games is a business but that doesn’t mean that it can’t also be an “art” look at vcoh for example and putting in the time and resources to fix it would make a difference to revenue and game longevity ( as well as powerful word of mouth and viral advertising)

Thanks all, and Noun I wrote this for you as you seem to be someone that actually gives a shit

Peace

Jesus christ, man...

Please, not another thread...

Jesus christ, man...

Lol

Well he is right on the money. Doubt Relic will listen though...

Nullist and Thrill did you even read the last part? No you didnt. You do know that Your comments are 100 times lamer than thread starters, right?

Well he is right on the money. Doubt Relic will listen though...

Nullist and Thrill did you even read the last part? No you didnt. You do know that Your comments are 100 times more lamer than thread starter, right?

Thanks bro, appreciate it

Totally agree with the OP, but I think for many of the points it's too late. Let's not complicate things so much. Internally, the game just isn't up to par for many of these changes. Serious issues exist under the hood, so to speak - 0 SLI support, input lag, P2P, the UI are all examples. There are plenty more. It doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't hope for a really good game, but the worst part is that instead of making significant steps to improve the shaky launch, Relic has insisted that we pay them MORE money with DLCs and empty promises. That's a shitty thing to do to people, and that's a shame.

Here are more thoughts:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/10707/what-the-pro-s-think-of-coh2/page/10

This is probably going to be the only time I get involved in one of these threads, maybe because it hasn't gone to shit yet by stupid raging posts, people somehow changing the conversation to, "you don't even play Soviet/Ost, Bro. Or maybe because after reading your post, it really seems like you've stepped back to truly examine the game and what is wrong with it, besides a simple raising of some number here, lowering some over there.

I was a little skeptical about the part where you mentioned adding in some historical feel into the game, I thought that could have taken a drastic turn for the worse but I really liked your referances to the doctrines in vCoh, terror and defensive. They really did make the game feel like WW2. They were all so well balanced too. Airborne did mean your were most likely going heavy infantry all game, but the paratroops with their recoiless rifles actually balanced them out, with out being absurd. The way the commanders are set up now, they have names and a face, their abilities usually consist of 3 rehashed abilities and 1 absurd ability that you are actually paying for.

The RNG needs to be completely removed, you are correct in everything that you said about it. Mortars are absolutely the biggest culprit in this. It seems that Soviet heavy mortar is the worst of them all. With it's incredible range I don't know how many games I've played where the mortar can sit just outside of the base, and instantly drop shells on any infantry that the Soviet AI gets sight on. It's just a unit that a player and plop down and forget about, because there is no reward for actually assigning a target for it. My main strategy for flanking MGs in Vcoh was to do a flank well behind the MG, and fight around it while I assigned my mortar to barrage it's position. And yes, if you were closer to the MG the grouping was so much tighter, unlike in CoH2, it just kind of scatters around and feels completely lucky and random.

AT guns need a complete overhaul. Their targeting choice now is laughable, shooting at infantry they will never hit, simply revealing their position and acting as a warning to your opponent, "HEY AT GUN HERE!"

I'm not so sure the AT nades need to be more expensive as they are now, I don't like how they only purpose Fausts and Nades actually seem to serve is to damage engines. I think the biggest problem with AT nades is how as soon as the vehicle enters range and a player clicks the target, they will be thrown no matter what. This is completely unfair to the Ost player because if a vehicle backs out of the Fausts range, the Faust gets canceled and the infantry will walk two steps, start the animation again, then cancel, walk two steps, cancel, untill the vehicle stops moving or enters and stays in Ranges. I've seen the most rediculous AT Nades be thrown, some of which make the JFK Magic Bullet look like Living Room Magic. The AT nades needs to be canceled if a vehicle moves out of range before the nade is thrown, or the throw time needs to be the same as the fausts fire time.

The only other thing I want to add, is the way Launch units are being replaced by DLC units. The Soviet Heavry Mortar, the DSHK MG, Assgrens, or any other unit that completely negates the Original unit. Why even build the Maxim when you have the DSHK, or the regular mortar? Yeah, they may be more expensive but without having to tech anything up, it's like being able to call in a Panther off-map at 2 Cp, I would always wait for the Panther resources and just call that bad boy in instead of building T3 Building and then the P4. It's just one more thing that takes away from the idea of purchasing your tech. Now the to get your MG for Soviets, you just need to wait the 1.5 minutes for you to generate enough Manpower, further reducing the use of Fuel. In Vcoh you could replace units with ToV units but if you did that, you were permanently replacing the base unit from the rest of the match.

In all, theres a lot I do enjoy from CoH2, I really like a lot of additions to the game, but I don't like that now I feel that I would be much more happy if things like jumping over fences, and truesight were just simply added in VCoH, I would never touch CoH2 again.

Well he is right on the money. Doubt Relic will listen though...

Nullist and Thrill did you even read the last part? No you didnt. You do know that Your comments are 100 times lamer than thread starters, right?

I doubt Relic CAN listen.

He starts right off by explaining that much of the problem stems from the engine. Right there you can see why this can't be constructive because the company is probably not capable of redoing the game on the engine level and clearly made a decision long ago not to use the old engine. besides, using the old enginge to make a game that feels different than COH2 means you are making a new game that isn't COH2 but COH1.5. (To really make a new COH1 into a COH2 you need more than new factions and units, you would need to incorporate something new, but probably not much more than the LOS and/or the blizzards. In fact, I would think that the old factions on the old maps but with the new LOS you would end up with a very different and new game.)

So really this is more one of those "what if..." types of discussions about a different reality we won't get to see. That is unless someone wants to buy the old engine and use it to make a new game.

And for all of you who love the "What if..." questions... No, Germany had not a prayer of invading England in 1940.

@H S King

Yes! You did it. Your essay gets a pass purely because the teacher cannot be bothered to read it.

P.S. various moderators have previously stated to keep posts preferably small and efficient, because otherwise nobody is going to read it...

He starts right off by explaining that much of the problem stems from the engine. Right there you can see why this can't be constructive because the company is probably not capable of redoing the game on the engine level and clearly made a decision long ago not to use the old engine.

No, he's just crazy. None of the things he says have anything to do with the engine version being used. Cover mechanics being ignored inside 10 meters for small arms is just a numeric value they could change if they wanted to. Per unit target tables could be reimplemented, but I doubt they will because they were such a nightmare for Relic to work with and were very unintuitive to all but the top level players who could bother scrolling through all the values after every patch. Advanced physics was AT rounds doing 90 degree turns midair because they had been calculated to hit so obviously they had to follow every movement change of the unit targeted, not really the kind of thing I'd particularly want back.

I don't like where CoH2 is going but I like HS King's ramblings even less.

No, he's just crazy. None of the things he says have anything to do with the engine version being used. Cover mechanics being ignored inside 10 meters for small arms is just a numeric value they could change if they wanted to. Per unit target tables could be reimplemented, but I doubt they will because they were such a nightmare for Relic to work with and were very unintuitive to all but the top level players who could bother scrolling through all the values after every patch. Advanced physics was AT rounds doing 90 degree turns midair because they had been calculated to hit so obviously they had to follow every movement change of the unit targeted, not really the kind of thing I'd particularly want back.

I don't like where CoH2 is going but I like HS King's ramblings even less.

Well the at rounds doing 90 degree turns got hits, and disabled tanks.. just like they need to. Having at guns that dont do any at, is useless and then you get stuck with the simplistic and stupid gren or con spam to counter armour, which is press button a = damaged engine.

Thats Red Alert 2 gameplay man..

All good tho man everyone has their own take on it.

This is probably going to be the only time I get involved in one of these threads, maybe because it hasn't gone to shit yet by stupid raging posts, people somehow changing the conversation to, "you don't even play Soviet/Ost, Bro. Or maybe because after reading your post, it really seems like you've stepped back to truly examine the game and what is wrong with it, besides a simple raising of some number here, lowering some over there.

I was a little skeptical about the part where you mentioned adding in some historical feel into the game, I thought that could have taken a drastic turn for the worse but I really liked your referances to the doctrines in vCoh, terror and defensive. They really did make the game feel like WW2. They were all so well balanced too. Airborne did mean your were most likely going heavy infantry all game, but the paratroops with their recoiless rifles actually balanced them out, with out being absurd. The way the commanders are set up now, they have names and a face, their abilities usually consist of 3 rehashed abilities and 1 absurd ability that you are actually paying for.

The RNG needs to be completely removed, you are correct in everything that you said about it. Mortars are absolutely the biggest culprit in this. It seems that Soviet heavy mortar is the worst of them all. With it's incredible range I don't know how many games I've played where the mortar can sit just outside of the base, and instantly drop shells on any infantry that the Soviet AI gets sight on. It's just a unit that a player and plop down and forget about, because there is no reward for actually assigning a target for it. My main strategy for flanking MGs in Vcoh was to do a flank well behind the MG, and fight around it while I assigned my mortar to barrage it's position. And yes, if you were closer to the MG the grouping was so much tighter, unlike in CoH2, it just kind of scatters around and feels completely lucky and random.

AT guns need a complete overhaul. Their targeting choice now is laughable, shooting at infantry they will never hit, simply revealing their position and acting as a warning to your opponent, "HEY AT GUN HERE!"

I'm not so sure the AT nades need to be more expensive as they are now, I don't like how they only purpose Fausts and Nades actually seem to serve is to damage engines. I think the biggest problem with AT nades is how as soon as the vehicle enters range and a player clicks the target, they will be thrown no matter what. This is completely unfair to the Ost player because if a vehicle backs out of the Fausts range, the Faust gets canceled and the infantry will walk two steps, start the animation again, then cancel, walk two steps, cancel, untill the vehicle stops moving or enters and stays in Ranges. I've seen the most rediculous AT Nades be thrown, some of which make the JFK Magic Bullet look like Living Room Magic. The AT nades needs to be canceled if a vehicle moves out of range before the nade is thrown, or the throw time needs to be the same as the fausts fire time.

The only other thing I want to add, is the way Launch units are being replaced by DLC units. The Soviet Heavry Mortar, the DSHK MG, Assgrens, or any other unit that completely negates the Original unit. Why even build the Maxim when you have the DSHK, or the regular mortar? Yeah, they may be more expensive but without having to tech anything up, it's like being able to call in a Panther off-map at 2 Cp, I would always wait for the Panther resources and just call that bad boy in instead of building T3 Building and then the P4. It's just one more thing that takes away from the idea of purchasing your tech. Now the to get your MG for Soviets, you just need to wait the 1.5 minutes for you to generate enough Manpower, further reducing the use of Fuel. In Vcoh you could replace units with ToV units but if you did that, you were permanently replacing the base unit from the rest of the match.

In all, theres a lot I do enjoy from CoH2, I really like a lot of additions to the game, but I don't like that now I feel that I would be much more happy if things like jumping over fences, and truesight were just simply added in VCoH, I would never touch CoH2 again.

Really appreciate that you took the time to respond then man, I feel pretty strong about what I said and it feels good when people can relate to it. 1+

@H S King
P.S. various moderators have previously stated to keep posts preferably small and efficient, because otherwise nobody is going to read it...

except I think he stayed on topic well and found myself agreeing through most of it. So it kept me reading through nearly all of it. Don't really agree about the needing the historical stuff. Otherwise pretty well thought out and thorough. Doubt it will make any influence though, unfortunately. If nothing else, nice job on the post layout.

except I think he stayed on topic well and found myself agreeing through most of it. So it kept me reading through nearly all of it. Don't really agree about the needing the historical stuff. Otherwise pretty well thought out and thorough. Doubt it will make any influence though, unfortunately. If nothing else, nice job on the post layout.

Thank you I did my best to be coherent and convincing.

do you have an e-book version?

didn't read, make your point quicker plz

didn't read, make your point quicker plz

Sorry bro as quick as I could make it - its a complex issue that deserves the space

I don't need reasons or convincing to recognize that I highly disliked DoW.

I actually think that the OP did not cover all issues, post should be expanded.