For a long time i have been frustrated with flame weapons, particularly because i play germans.
The problem with flames is the criticals. As a balance issue flames particulary effect germans due to 4 man squads. This makes criticals unbalanced.
If a flame weapon crits 2 men in a german squad they are forced to instantly retreating or losing the squad. If a flame weapons crits 2 men in a soviet squad they still have 4 men and do not require retreating.
I see no reason why this is balanced and would like to see flame crits removed.
Your thoughts?
Flames
18 Nov 2013, 01:41 AM
#1
Posts: 184
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18 Nov 2013, 01:44 AM
#2
Posts: 3293
the whole flamer system is based on crits... my point is that you are saying to take away the thing that makes them useful.
be interesting if the German flamethrower was better than the soviet one is. to compensate for the squad sizes.
be interesting if the German flamethrower was better than the soviet one is. to compensate for the squad sizes.
Failure is always an option. 
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18 Nov 2013, 01:45 AM
#3
Posts: 184
In what way? I'm sure the soviet players wouldn't mind seeing a flamenwerfer without crits.
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18 Nov 2013, 01:47 AM
#4
Posts: 292
The Germans have the best none doctrinal flamer unit = FHT. Tried to play as Soviets against this thing?
Ade, mein liebes Schätzelein
18 Nov 2013, 02:49 AM
#5
Posts: 622
The Germans have the best none doctrinal flamer unit = FHT. Tried to play as Soviets against this thing?
that thing is quite easy to counter, any AT gun or 2xAT nade, will counter FHT quite easy, and FHT don't kill as nearly fast as KV8. soviet's KV8 is on the other hand still wiping squads so fast and so fat.
18 Nov 2013, 02:59 AM
#6
Posts: 184
Yup, the kv8 is still a complete monster.
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18 Nov 2013, 03:01 AM
#7
Posts: 2742
the whole flamer system is based on crits... my point is that you are saying to take away the thing that makes them useful.
be interesting if the German flamethrower was better than the soviet one is. to compensate for the squad sizes.
I always felt that the utility of flames were that they generally worked in the opposite fashion for cover as small arms.
Fire counters buildings and cover. It is less effective in the open and in red cover.
The crits they score are another thing entirely, not to mention fire doesn't apparently receive a reduction versus retreating units. (Or maybe that's just the criticals talking.)
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18 Nov 2013, 03:07 AM
#8
Posts: 3293
last i checked they got rid of retreat modifiers. so unless the flamethrower has something specific then yea your guy is toast.
ie: they never had retreat modfyers in coh2.
ie: they never had retreat modfyers in coh2.
Failure is always an option. It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!) Caffeine illegal for WiFi's to ingest in 48 states, 2 colonies, and 1 providences. To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!
18 Nov 2013, 03:09 AM
#9
Posts: 419
pioneer flamer aint even worth it, you cant reliably take out a garrisoned unit( or do any damge to a unit in open) before taking significant damage or losing the squad or the flamethrower entity. Pioneer flamer is another useless german ability like hull down
18 Nov 2013, 04:48 AM
#10
Posts: 915
Combat engies And pios with flamers are very unreliable.
18 Nov 2013, 09:20 AM
#11
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedYes, buff Pio Flamer.
Especially now that Pio/CE FLamers are almost automatic, its time to finally fix this age old imbalance as explained above in relation to armor and unit size.
I recommend Pio Flamer changed to a wider template, with less DPS, same crit chance. CE Flamer can stay as it is.
Especially now that Pio/CE FLamers are almost automatic, its time to finally fix this age old imbalance as explained above in relation to armor and unit size.
I recommend Pio Flamer changed to a wider template, with less DPS, same crit chance. CE Flamer can stay as it is.
18 Nov 2013, 09:44 AM
#12
Posts: 351
Why exactly should the pio flamer be buffed? A flamethrower against a 6 man squad isn't AS good as against a 4 but combat engis cost 240 vs 200 of pios and the flame weapon itself still does it's job. Isn't this asymmetrical balance? The flamer is the only muni based, non doctrinal infantry dps upgrade the soviets get. If there must be exact parity in this, then why shouldn't cons get lmgs (for example)?
18 Nov 2013, 09:45 AM
#13
15 
Posts: 786
crit chance has just been reduced from 20% to 10%
18 Nov 2013, 09:50 AM
#14
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedWhy exactly should the pio flamer be buffed? A flamethrower against a 6 man squad isn't AS good as against a 4 but combat engis cost 240 vs 200 of pios and the flame weapon itself still does it's job. Isn't this asymmetrical balance? The flamer is the only muni based, non doctrinal infantry dps upgrade the soviets get. If there must be exact parity in this, then why shouldn't cons get lmgs (for example)?
A) Ost infantry is armor reliant and smaller units. Against which the Sov Flamer is quadratically more effective than Ost Flamer is vs Sov larger units. You answered your own question.
B) CE/Pio cost is a separate issue, if it even is one.
C) There doesn't need to be an "exact parity", but an asymmetric equity.
A wider template with reduced DPS for Ost would achieve this.
18 Nov 2013, 10:17 AM
#15
Posts: 351
A) Ost infantry is armor reliant and smaller units. Against which the Sov Flamer is quadratically more effective than Ost Flamer is vs Sov larger units. You answered your own question.
B) CE/Pio cost is a separate issue, if it even is one.
C) There doesn't need to be an "exact parity", but an asymmetric equity.
A wider template with reduced DPS for Ost would achieve this.
I disagree. The cost is a factor as combat engis are more expensive in exchange for being more effective (in a direct comparison) when upgraded. Isn't this already an "asymmetric equity"? My initial question still stands however; why exactly do ost need a better flame pio unit? Do you feel as though flame pios are currently incapable of fulfilling their role of building clearing and supplemental infantry dps?
18 Nov 2013, 13:31 PM
#16
Posts: 292
Appleseed and Blitz1337, I liked that you skipped the part when I said "none doctrinal". You don't play Soviets enough to know that the KV8 can't be built by default?
Ade, mein liebes Schätzelein
18 Nov 2013, 13:39 PM
#17
2 
Posts: 2181
The crits from flame weapons should be removed to make it more consistent. To compensate flame weapons get a 10% damage increase.
18 Nov 2013, 13:56 PM
#18
Posts: 525
the only good non doctrinal soviet flamer is the penal flamer. the rest blow the fuck up. they reduced the chance to explode my ass.
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18 Nov 2013, 14:12 PM
#19
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedEnkidu, three times its been explained to you.
If you still dont understand the difference between what a Flamer does to a 4man unit relying on armor as compared to a 6man unit, as well as weapon crews, as well as on garrisons then thats your problem and repeating the question like a parrot isnt going to get you a different answer.
If you still dont understand the difference between what a Flamer does to a 4man unit relying on armor as compared to a 6man unit, as well as weapon crews, as well as on garrisons then thats your problem and repeating the question like a parrot isnt going to get you a different answer.
18 Nov 2013, 14:58 PM
#20
Posts: 971
Factions shouldn't be simmetrical.
Flamers are more effective against Ost squads. Probably it's true.
So what?
Grens have LMG upgrade, conscripts no.
Flamers are more effective against Ost squads. Probably it's true.
So what?
Grens have LMG upgrade, conscripts no.
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