Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

Volks are laughably expensive for being straight up worse than conscripts (up to their very utility, after vet 2 cons arrive) and that's a fact. They have the better snare, the better grenade, the better stock upgrade that grants them insane bonuses in performance and cost reduction, the better veterancy, the better doctrinal upgrades that are overshadowed by the better stock upgrade. I doubt that it's an unpopular opinion that Cons veterancy bonuses should be toned down and Volks veterancy bonuses should be replaced and improved.. But this is offtopic so again I don't see the point in going on here.

If you are trying to make a point its better to be objective, and also not to lie, especially over something easily verifiable .... molitov is not better than the lava nade in any metric but price, in all others its worse or equal. the molitov is so bad actually, even at the lowest price it has ever been, at 80mp and 10fu they had to bundle it with the AT nade so peopl;e would actually unlock and use it... shorter range and throw time make it a nightmare to use offensively- traits the lava nade is superiour in.

also theres this we thing called timing.... 7 man is a great upgrade, one of the best actually. that comes at the cost of being the latest arriving one there is, the volks STG while it is weaker, t his is in part because ti cvomes faster than any other. this means it has a whole game to generate value, which it does, as its a flat upgrasde at all ranges to the bKAR and centralizes that dps onto 2 models...

volks need work, but okw has strums for early game agression and obers for late game. volks are not intended to be riflemen despite what was attemopted to them. a vet rework for okw as a whole in needed

Are you absolutely sure that volks have worse snare and nade ?

Yes, by vet 2 and vet 3 both become better than volks utility, with molotov still being cheaper and both snare and molotov being paired with oorah

The upgrade you are referring to comes into play after t4 installment, volks can have theirs way earlier, they also beat cons without it. Basically without a flamer, significant number advantage or better cover/positioning it is very hard for stock cons to win this matchup. That is why SVTs are so popular - they eliminate early game weakness of cons.

It doesn't matter when it comes, volks have a powerspike of 3 minutes after their stg upgrade and that's it for them, they'll become the underdog of any matchup while being more expensive and bleeding more.
Vet 3 normal cons still trade much more efficiently against stg volks while having no muni cost upgrade. The difference is not up to debate because we can pop cheatcommand anytime and see objective data

molitov is not better than the lava nade

It is by vet 2 Cons, which is what I said. It's also arguably a sidegrade already from the start with the slower throwing speed since it's paired to a non doctrinal rush ability

The stg upgrade isn't special for upgrading dps at all ranges, most upgrades now do it, including comscripts doctrinal and non doctrinal upgrade and most allied upgrades. It's also a intellctually dishonest argument, no upgrade is "bad" over the base version, even if it is more oriented at specific ranges. The ppsh conscript upgrade make dps at range worse but nobody in his right mind would ever want a normal unupgraded version of cons over ppsh cons, if the other upgrade options weren't avaiable.

According to what metric is the Stv upgrade popular? How much time was he used in the ongoing tournament? Everyone goes for 7 men coms without issue and cons never struggle throughout the game

a vet rework for okw as a whole in needed

Will give a big + here. It is really shafted especially with the un-updated descriptions.

Will give a big + here. It is really shafted especially with the un-updated descriptions.

That's what I had proposed in the first place here and the other thread about Stukas, since there's quite useless vet bonuses in their veterancy

I say several things and gtfo and not gonna say a word after, no point in spamming back and forth, it is an important thread:
t34-76 is cheaper then p4.
pineapple nade and rgd-33 are cheaper then Bundle nade
Molotov is cheaper then Incendiary nade
AT nades are the same price, but cons AT has less pen and less range.

I think that's enough with analogies. What is more cost-efficient is up to you, not gonna argue with that.

To go back in topic.

Feuersturm Doctrine

Incendiary Munitions affecting just a single ability of a unit is still a thing. An idea would be bundling it with a WP style shell using the Obersoldaten smoke, fired by Panzer IV.

AT nades are the same price, but cons AT has less pen and less range.

Less pen only matters in certain scenarios such as when a tank is at 0 health but doesn't die due to a non-penetration. All snares have deflection damage, except the Grenadier Panzerfaust (maybe the Volks one too). All snares also have the same range, except the Grenadier Panzerfaust. Honestly its time to standardize the snares, except maybe the Grenadier one since they only have 4 models.

Mp40 volks should be a non-doctrinal, global upgrade choice, like stgs

Why is sector assault not even being looked at? Its far too OP as one click abilities go...

Mp40 volks should be a non-doctrinal, global upgrade choice, like stgs

you mean like coh1???

With Mp40 being stock you could bundle Volks Stg with the Infrared StG44 Package and adjust it properly. No more 3 minute powerspike into uselessness.

To go back in topic.

Feuersturm Doctrine

Incendiary Munitions affecting just a single ability of a unit is still a thing. An idea would be bundling it with a WP style shell using the Obersoldaten smoke, fired by Panzer IV.

Excellent idea.

With Mp40 being stock you could bundle Volks Stg with the Infrared StG44 Package and adjust it properly. No more 3 minute powerspike into uselessness.

Plus it adds a DYNAMIC upgrade instead of a no-brainer upgrade whilst also freeing up munitions for dynamic abilities. Keep the Mp40 bundled with smoke and it helps okws issue with no smoke without leig.
Nothing but good could come from the change.
AT the very minimum it's a change that opens up the opportunity for good changes that stgs forbids.

Plus it adds a DYNAMIC upgrade instead of a no-brainer upgrade whilst also freeing up munitions for dynamic abilities. Keep the Mp40 bundled with smoke and it helps okws issue with no smoke without leig.
Nothing but good could come from the change.
AT the very minimum it's a change that opens up the opportunity for good changes that stgs forbids.

With Mp40 being stock you could bundle Volks Stg with the Infrared StG44 Package and adjust it properly. No more 3 minute powerspike into uselessness.

OKW has already Sturmpioneers

If Volks lose their non doctrinal stg, their upgrade must be a long range oriented upgrade, either a veteran squad leader obersoldaten with an oberspldaten kar 98k, make the squad a 6 men rifle squad, or a long range weapon. Not all maps fit smgs

Why is sector assault not even being looked at? Its far too OP as one click abilities go...

+1 I've even considered making a thread about this. Playing a fair amount of 2v2s I feel like Overwatch is VERY popular largely because of this ability. It's pretty insane that in the patch now you get an additional Anti Infantry strafe for just 25 munitions more compared to Stuka CAS. The end result is an anti-everything strafe that guarantees map control even with AA because there are so many planes than it's impossible to shoot them all down without at least 1 pass ruining your day. It'd probably be more balanced if it worked like Hold the Line or Sector Artillery/Perimeter Overwatch so you can't use it super offensively to get map control or pin someone in their base due to the size of the area of the ability. Otherwise increase the cost to 275~

OKW has already Sturmpioneers

Ost has pgrens and pioneers yet also have MP40 storm troopers and assault grens. Strange... I'm going to look into it a bit further but I feel there must be some cost effeciency disparity or perhaps something to be gained by having a cheaper and more durable squad doing a similar job.

Maybe there is something hidden deep within the formula for reinforcement costs that might lend a cheaper AND larger squad to an assault role... Give me a few weeks, it'll take at least that long to crack the code I'm sure-I'd go as far as to say I'm certain since There is nothing on the surface to even begin the research with that point even in the direction as to why a larger and cheaper squad filling the same role might be desirable.
Sturms have so many jobs already, I'm not sure why players arnt using them exclusively as combat troops all game already!
It's too bad for covid or if book a flight to Egypt... maybe the ancient hieroglyphics hold the secrets I'm seeking.
If only it was a simple as cheaper squad with more models and less jobs! But that seems too simple. You would have to be an absolute idiot to miss something so obvious.
Perhaps maybe if maybe Relic would give me the source code so I could delve deeply into the inner workings of coh2 and decipher its deep secrets....

I "thedarkarmadillo" pledge from this day forth WITH ALL OF YOU AS WITNESS that I will not rest until I have discovered if there is ANY value at all in having a cheaper, more durable unit overlap with a more expensive unit who has many jobs, one of which would overlap! If I can't crack it I swear as a blood oath my descendants will pursue the task on pain of dishonor and disgrace! I forsake my name and instead take on the title of "searcher" for that will be all I become until this inhumane riddle is cracked!

Oh guys never mind. I figured it out, yea turns out having an option that ISN'T 300mp and only 4 models might see some use, what with the less bleed, less sacrificed map control, more staying power, less other jobs to do and more room for additional utility as well as granting the ability to diversify volks and make em interesting.

Consider my previous oath fulfilled and I am the searcher no longer.

I certainly didn't think it would be that simple tbh... I read about Sturm pios doing it already and assumed that there had to be some grand formula involving ancient blood magic. Turns out you just have to not be an absolute tosser to decipher how 2 units might possibly offer alternatives to a similar task.

If Volks lose their non doctrinal stg, their upgrade must be a long range oriented upgrade, either a veteran squad leader obersoldaten with an oberspldaten kar 98k, make the squad a 6 men rifle squad, or a long range weapon. Not all maps fit smgs

You could give Spios k98s and a Stg upgrade for later. Takes away their powerspike for the first few minutes while making them less map dependend and better scaling (+cost reduction). Makes flamer and shreck probably better too.

And Volks could get a better k98 at vet 4 like the old Sections. So you can choose between fast mp40 upgrade or get a decent long range squad lategame.

First of all there's no reason to be THIS passive aggressive.

Assgrens and stormtroopers are doctrinal compared to Panzergrens, pioneers have nothing to do with any of those units and are a normal flamethrower squad. All those units are in different doctrines. The issue with stormtroopers for a long time was that they overlapped with Panzergrenadiers, to the point that they were reworked as a completely different unit with camo and mp40 + a tactical ambush ability. Sturmpioneers ARE NOT like Panzergrenadiers, their STG is more similar to an SMG.

OKW is too dependant on Volks, and as the unit got worse the faction 1vs1 viability also got worse. Maybe the best solution isn't replacing volks with bandaid upgrade volks but start tackling the actual issues.

If Sturmpioneers struggle with combat tasks (something I consider true, even after the veterancy requirement nerfs), then they should receive proper buffs in their scaling, first of all by frontloading some combat buffs instead of a grenade ability, for example by replacing their stgs with Panzergrenadiers stgs by vet 1, and since OKW infantry AT stock department is so lacking, give Sturms the ability to remove their engineer skills completely to have 2 shrecks

Mp40 volks are more viable in late game because the unit gets an extra RA boost and the poor veterancy resonates better with the 5 men mp40 squad than with 2 stg44 and 3 kar98k. Rebalancing the STG upgrade by itself means inevitably leaving the unit veterancy as lacking. It's a wrong process and is going to bring issues in the long term. First we should look at what needs to change to improve the unit in late game, and if it has to be dps bonuses, durability bonuses or reinforce cost reduction. Only after that we could discuss replacing Stgs