The maxim thread

The maxim is a HMG balance for the soviet: 6 man hmg and conscript which can merge with it.

Nerfing or buffing an early support unit based on a stat comparison have no point.

To be fair, I also think it is more difficult to play soviets than e.g. Ostheer. Its because of the confusing tech-system etc. So many people, mainly new players or noobs destroy the lose/win situation.

Last time soviets had normal win/lose rates, hole fraction was broken and OP as sh*t.

The maxim is a HMG balance for the soviet: 6 man hmg and conscript which can merge with it.

Nerfing or buffing an early support unit based on a stat comparison have no point.

ahh that must be the reason why the soviets performs soo well right now does it?... ohh wait... it doesnt

From a wider perspective, I think that the Soviet tech choice is hard to balance due to its design. We've seen Conscripts, T1, and T2 crush the others at different times.
So, small changes, even more than usual.

I suggest a longer burst length without the Suppressing Fire ability. This probably won't improve its pin time by much, but will make the weapon more reliable.

The ability could then give less burst length but more suppression.

youre entitled to your opinions... but objective data subjective data and expert opinion both disagree with you... in any case i can with 100% certainty say the soviets have the worst average winrate and the worst winrate at all points of the ladder... that information however does not directly translate to "soviets are the weakest" but it already gives a hint on its own...

when such information is combined with expert opinion one can say that the soviets are the weakest faction ingame however...

Oh stop it with that BS. You're becoming as venomous as that Piper person. The piper that pipes. Maxim is the weakest MG but it's more than enough considering the other units soviets have. Double maxim is effective into conscript spam, at least it is for me, against OKW. And against OST, since pios have better sight, you won't be happy against MG42 spotting. So instead of maxims, you go for mortar and conscript spam. Or sniper.

What objective data? That 1v1 graph? That graph is BS at best. The differences are within 1%. You can't take that as any meaningful data. If you studied anything resembling statistics, you'd know that. Especially in a game as complex as this one.
Expert opinion? Which expert opinion? This forum is filled with opinions from people that spew out arguments for both Axis and Ally buffs that make me wonder how they managed to finish elementary school (if they did). There are no expert opinions for such content. You have players that have more games and better control. They have more instantly available information about the game, and that's it. They are no expert-balancers. This is a video game, not chess or handball. Stop treating it like it's some sort of hard to master BS...

Experts.... making me laugh.

Furthermore, I main USF and they are the best faction (for me at least)

ahh that must be the reason why the soviets performs soo well right now does it?... ohh wait... it doesnt

You little forum warrior should calm down right now, because your dear soviet just show how well they can perform in every 2vs2 tournament as a polyvalent support faction and if you don't trust me you can watch all the replay of the UTT2 tournament here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ToSw4K2gg&list=PLD1QsLnpWUVHZXPcg4GDfGLOc7-NDjnKk

while being a must have faction in 3vs3 and 4vs4 gamemode and for good reasons.
So keep calm and axis OP bro.

Oh stop it with that BS. You're becoming as venomous as that Piper person. The piper that pipes. Maxim is the weakest MG but it's more than enough considering the other units soviets have. Double maxim is effective into conscript spam, at least it is for me, against OKW. And against OST, since pios have better sight, you won't be happy against MG42 spotting. So instead of maxims, you go for mortar and conscript spam. Or sniper.

no it isnt... SOV struggles with double maxim as anyone with a brain can just sidestep it and lavanade it... in fact the meta build against OKW is actually T1 M3 + penals + engie + cons + sniper.... going double maxim is a near death sentence in almost every situation...

likewise with conscript + sniper or conscript + mortar against OST just illucidates how useless the maxim is against OST... likewise conscript + sniper leaves you vulnerable to a 222/FHT or even a rushed panzer 4 since you dont get the ZIS3 anytime soon...

in any case people agree that SOV sucks and the data also agrees with it

What objective data? That 1v1 graph? That graph is BS at best. The differences are within 1%. You can't take that as any meaningful data. If you studied anything resembling statistics, you'd know that. Especially in a game as complex as this one.

well its 4% difference to the highest winrate and between 6-10% winrate difference in the 2.5% to 12.5% ladder bracket... in any case the faction is still widely considered weak by most people

Expert opinion? Which expert opinion? This forum is filled with opinions from people that spew out arguments for both Axis and Ally buffs that make me wonder how they managed to finish elementary school (if they did). There are no expert opinions for such content. You have players that have more games and better control. They have more instantly available information about the game, and that's it. They are no expert-balancers. This is a video game, not chess or handball. Stop treating it like it's some sort of hard to master BS...

the point is most people agree that the maxim SUCKS... there has already been several polls at it beforehand and people agree that the maxim is the worst MG ingame... likewise alot of people will agree that SOV suffers under the current meta... and it really does... try playing SOV without airborne doctrine and try to eek out a meagre existence until you get the T-70 and you will get what i mean...

...

Sent that Relic not me, since it is Relics who says that Arc of fire of the maxim is 90 degrees and 45 as your Opening post says.

Maxim has an arc of 90. Horizontal speed 28

M2HB has the same arc of 90. Horizontal speed 24

Dshk has the worse ark of 68. Horizontal speed 38

Vicker has an ark of 120 Horizontal speed 25

HMG42 has an ark of 120. Horizontal speed 25

HMG34 has an ark of 120. Horizontal speed 25

In sort Dshk has the worse Arc but higher speed to compensate. M2HB is inferior when it comes to trucking since it has the same Acc as the maxim but the slowest speed.

Vickers/HMG42/HMG34 have the wider Arc but also have slow trucking speed.

You little forum warrior should calm down right now, because your dear soviet just show how well they can perform in every 2vs2 tournament as a polyvalent support faction and if you don't trust me you can watch all the replay of the UTT2 tournament here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ToSw4K2gg&list=PLD1QsLnpWUVHZXPcg4GDfGLOc7-NDjnKk

while being a must have faction in 3vs3 and 4vs4 gamemode and for good reasons.
So keep calm and axis OP bro.

SOV`s weaknesses are less apparent the larger the gamemode... mainly that 20 or so minutes of suffering until the 7 man upgrade rolls out becomes far less apparent when the other player can practically prop the faction up temporarily till then... SOV pairs especially well with a USF player who can kick their opposing faction in the butt with an aggressive start...

in any case objective data still agrees that SOV is the worst faction in the game... something has to be done

SOV`s weaknesses are less apparent the larger the gamemode... mainly that 20 or so minutes of suffering until the 7 man upgrade rolls out becomes far less apparent when the other player can practically prop the faction up temporarily till then... SOV pairs especially well with a USF player who can kick their opposing faction in the butt with an aggressive start...

in any case objective data still agrees that SOV is the worst faction in the game... something has to be done

And what will happen in every other gamemode where sovietU is good if we give a straigh buff to one unit? And moreso a unit effectiv on linear map?

(And datas are an indicator, not an absolute truth, and can be somewhat easily misunderstood.)

Buff Maxim and it becomes more broken if used as blobb.

All HMGs should get a limit of 1 until first techs are build. e.g. Ostheer needs first tech and soviets need extra T1 e.g.

Less stam would be genius.

And what will happen in every other gamemode where sovietU is good if we give a straigh buff to one unit? And moreso a unit effectiv on linear map?

not soo much... the soviets are good in teamgames but not oppressively so id say... likewise i also agreed with some other soviet nerfs like nerfs to the T-70 and a price + pop nerf to the zis in exchange for buffing the maxim and conscript... theoretically if these changes are applied together the soviet`s teamgame performance wont be improved by that much however will fix the major issue that breaks soviet 1v1 performance...

(And datas are an indicator, not an absolute truth, and can be somewhat easily misunderstood.)

yep mentioned it already... check it out...

that information however does not directly translate to "soviets are the weakest" but it already gives a hint on its own...

when such information is combined with expert opinion one can say that the soviets are the weakest faction ingame however...

Buff Maxim and it becomes more broken if used as blobb.

not anymore than any other mg ingame id reckon...

All HMGs should get a limit of 1 until first techs are build. e.g. Ostheer needs first tech and soviets need extra T1 e.g.

Less stam would be genius.

that might be a decent idea...

not soo much... the soviets are good in teamgames but not oppressively so id say... likewise i also agreed with some other soviet nerfs like nerfs to the T-70 and a price + pop nerf to the zis in exchange for buffing the maxim and conscript... theoretically if these changes are applied together the soviet`s teamgame performance wont be improved by that much however will fix the major issue that breaks soviet 1v1 performance...

Then we are talking, define clearly the buffs and nerfs (Numbers, based on what, which impact could it have ect...) and we'll progress toward a change (healthy?) for the SU (and the opponent?).

Miragefla mod maxim is fine imo. Slightly higher suppression and wider arc, better formation to reduce deathlooping. It better make it to the live game.

no it isnt... SOV struggles with double maxim as anyone with a brain can just sidestep it and lavanade it... in fact the meta build against OKW is actually T1 M3 + penals + engie + cons + sniper.... going double maxim is a near death sentence in almost every situation...

Nobody decent would go with this absolute mess of a build order. And the reason you go M3 against OKW isn't because maxims suck, its because M3 is extremely strong against okw. This is not exactly advanced knowledge here... In fact, i'd argue maxims against OKW can be a viable counter meta since OKW players often preload fusiliers expecting M3s and lacking incendiary grenades, they won't be able to root out maxims from key buildings- think maps like lost glider or Langres.

I'm also not sure who all these "experts" you are referring to who "agree" that soviets are the weakest faction, I don't know any of them.



Now I do think the maxim is weak and could use a buff, but I fundamentally disagree with so much of what you've said.

Oh and I am a soviet main.

Then we are talking, define clearly the buffs and nerfs (Numbers, based on what, which impact could it have ect...) and we'll progress toward a change (healthy?) for the SU (and the opponent?).

i dont have exact numbers tbh... i am just citng units i feel are overperforming and units that are underperforming... i do have some opinions though

zis = 15 popcap 360mp cost
T-70= armor to 55 penetration -5 all ranges /changed to 260mp 65 fuel cost

T3 to 35 fuel but only has M5 HT available... 7 man conscript upgrade is unlocked by building T3
7man unlock in T3 renamed to T3 vehicle authorization cost changed to 45 fuel: unlocks SU-76 and T-70

SU-76 = +5 firing arc on both sides + some sort of sherman dozer like upgrade with a price tag of 40 fuel and increases damage per shot to 160 and +80hp

penals = price to 270mp armed with 3x mosins and 3x SVT.. AI upgrade to 6x SVT for 60muni mutually exclusive to PTRS upgrade (performance is flattened)

SOV sniper = made into a clone of the ost sniper but with flare instead of incendiary shot...

maxim = buff suppression to MG42 levels... increase packup time by 1s

some changes im not sure of

KV-2 = (quite oppressive in a teamgame with its huge barrage range) higher setup time for barrage mode

ISU-152 = i think this unit is fine in teamgames since its counter (elephants and JTs are there) and its too wonky for 1v1s... im undecided here

Nobody decent would go with this absolute mess of a build order. And the reason you go M3 against OKW isn't because maxims suck, its because M3 is extremely strong against okw. This is not exactly advanced knowledge here...

that isnt the build order just the units used... the order is usually engie => T1 => penal => M3 though may vary per person... in any case expect to see double flamers and m3... both potent vs OKW unless they go pfussi

I'm also not sure who all these "experts" you are referring to who "agree" that soviets are the weakest faction, I don't know any of them.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106593/why-soviets-are-op
lots of people in the thread seem to agree that the soviets suck...

Now I do think the maxim is weak and could use a buff, but I fundamentally disagree with so much of what you've said.

concerning SOV or the maxim?

concerning SOV or the maxim?

Kinda a lot across the board. But In particular regarding soviets.

i dont have exact numbers tbh... i am just citng units i feel are overperforming and units that are underperforming... i do have some opinions though

zis = 15 popcap 360mp cost
T-70= armor to 55 penetration -5 all ranges /changed to 260mp 65 fuel cost
No. The T70 is good because of its anti infantry ability, not anti vehicle. Reducing the cost without reducing the anti infantry performance will just make things worse
T3 to 35 fuel but only has M5 HT available... 7 man conscript upgrade is unlocked by building T3
7man unlock in T3 renamed to T3 vehicle authorization cost changed to 45 fuel: unlocks SU-76 and T-70
I like the idea of the M3 being available earlier but I am not convinced this is the way to do it. Also if the 7 man upgrade is made available earlier with no side tech cost, it needs to be nerfed.
SU-76 = +5 firing arc on both sides + some sort of sherman dozer like upgrade with a price tag of 40 fuel and increases damage per shot to 160 and +80hp
No. Buffing the firing arc is fine but the upgrade is silly and still won't make it more viable compared to the SU85. The two vehicles need more distinct roles and this upgrade will not provide it.

penals = price to 270mp armed with 3x mosins and 3x SVT.. AI upgrade to 6x SVT for 60muni mutually exclusive to PTRS upgrade (performance is flattened)
Maybe. Its an uncreative solution but possibly viable.
SOV sniper = made into a clone of the ost sniper but with flare instead of incendiary shot...
Hell no. The soviet sniper and ostheer sniper where originally balanced based on their targets(4man squads, vs 6man squads), the soviet sniper would be absolutely OP with the ostheer sniper rate of fire.

maxim = buff suppression to MG42 levels... increase packup time by 1s
The maxim does not need its suppression to be at MG42 levels. It could use a buff yes but Mg42 has high suppression for a reason. I'd give it slightly better suppression then vickers and keep everything else the same.

some changes im not sure of

KV-2 = (quite oppressive in a teamgame with its huge barrage range) higher setup time for barrage mode
KV-2 already has a very lengthy setup time. Increasing its setup time further will only serve to make the unit "clunky" to use without actually changing its effectiveness.

Granted, lately I haven't been playing as much as I used to. But I know I'm at least a decent player and honestly I look at some of your suggestions, ideas and opinions and I just can't understand where they come from.

No. The T70 is good because of its anti infantry ability, not anti vehicle. Reducing the cost without reducing the anti infantry performance will just make things worse

the problem with the T-70 is because it melded both great anti infantry performance while being capable of punishing its counterparts such as the luchs/222/FHT/flametruck in a fast unit... these changes make it less of a hard counter against the luchs 222 and flaktruck and make it considerably easier to beat it off with armored support...

these changes makes sure the T-70 has similar anti infantry performance against the luchs but no longer punishingly effective when fighting it...

I like the idea of the M3 being available earlier but I am not convinced this is the way to do it. Also if the 7 man upgrade is made available earlier with no side tech cost, it needs to be nerfed.

the 7 man upgrade at that cost comes no later than the ostheer LMG42... in that case its fine since the 7 man upgrade is roughly comparable to LMG grens anyways...

No. Buffing the firing arc is fine but the upgrade is silly and still won't make it more viable compared to the SU85. The two vehicles need more distinct roles and this upgrade will not provide it.

the issue with the SU-76 is the complete lack of scaling for the unit... by adding the upgrade the unit now scales into the lategame and is not rendered totally obsolete by the SU-85

The maxim does not need its suppression to be at MG42 levels. It could use a buff yes but Mg42 has high suppression for a reason. I'd give it slightly better suppression then vickers and keep everything else the same.

this is definitely a difficult point... we both agree that the maxim needs more suppression but cannot agree as to what value it should have... imo i think MG42 suppression is fine for the maxim so long as it gets a pack time nerf aswell...

KV-2 already has a very lengthy setup time. Increasing its setup time further will only serve to make the unit "clunky" to use without actually changing its effectiveness.

this unit is extremely scary in teamgames... but im not entirely sure of the change either... thats why i put it in the im not sure part...