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Why Soviets are OP

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12 Nov 2020, 21:38 PM
#441
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 05:26 AMgbem
i cited some actual stats to the performance of units beyond your "my feelings" argument... your feelings are subjective and thus subject to biases... i gave some actual evidence to the numbers behind it and as to why i disagree with you... but instead of attempting to refute them you simply ignore them and continue on being delusional...

and no being a 1v1 player doesnt excuse jack shit... in a 1v1 the STG will always have a 30% dps boost to volks at range 20 regardless of game mode... it doesnt change whether its 1v1 2v2 or 4v4 hell 100v100... the STG does 30% dps at range 20 to volks period... that is IRREFUTABLE... that is FACTUAL... backup your claims with actual data before arguing because at this point your spouting out bullshit...

Seriously, a playercard would be helpful. Cons are better in team games than in 1v1s because it's easier to survive to late game in team games where the 7 man upgrade comes and really changes the flow of the game. 7 man Cons are arguably better than StG Volks since it's a cheaper upgrade, buffs survivability, gives a small but nice buff to DPS in cover, and most importantly, helps make Conscripts replaceable (StG Volks are pretty much irreplaceable in team games, even 1v1s and 2v2s most of the time).

Also, please don't talk about bias without a playercard. I try my best to be unbiased but I am obviously still Axis leaning as evidenced by my playercard. The same could be said of you and any other forum member.
12 Nov 2020, 21:47 PM
#442
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:38 PMSpoof

Seriously, a playercard would be helpful. Cons are better in team games than in 1v1s because it's easier to survive to late game in team games where the 7 man upgrade comes and really changes the flow of the game. 7 man Cons are arguably better than StG Volks since it's a cheaper upgrade, buffs survivability, gives a small but nice buff to DPS in cover, and most importantly, helps make Conscripts replaceable (StG Volks are pretty much irreplaceable in team games, even 1v1s and 2v2s most of the time).


i do think 7 man is strong... but only after vet 3... before veterancy 7 man is comparable to any bog standard weapon upgrade...

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:38 PMSpoof

Also, please don't talk about bias without a playercard. I try my best to be unbiased but I am obviously still Axis leaning as evidenced by my playercard. The same could be said of you and any other forum member.


ive had my playercard on my sig for some time... but somehow it isnt visible to people due to something related to my steam profile...
12 Nov 2020, 21:51 PM
#443
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:47 PMgbem

i do think 7 man is strong... but only after vet 3... before veterancy 7 man is comparable to any bog standard weapon upgrade...

I have to disagree. 7 man as an upgrade is always strong (when compared to upgrades such as the StG, MG42, BARS and Brens) based on the improvement it gives to the squad. The reason why 0 vet 7 man Cons are comparable to other upgraded infantry is because standard Cons are intentionally shit. But since the upgrade is cheaper than most other upgrades I'd say it's a pretty damn good upgrade. Also using Vet 3 Cons is a pretty bad comparison, even to other vetted infantry in my opinion. The gap between Vet 0 and Vet 3 Cons is huge.
12 Nov 2020, 22:17 PM
#444
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:51 PMSpoof

I have to disagree. 7 man as an upgrade is always strong (when compared to upgrades such as the StG, MG42, BARS and Brens) based on the improvement it gives to the squad. The reason why 0 vet 7 man Cons are comparable to other upgraded infantry is because standard Cons are intentionally shit.


as ive said before its a 17% boost to hp and dps and a 15% boost to DPS in cover for base cons...

an LMG42 upgrade gives outright 36% DPS at range 20 and 61% at range 30... other upgrades like the SVT or the STG44 also provide massive DPS upgrades at a wide variety of ranges...

STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range 10...

even SVT a DPS boost of 30% at range 30 28% at range 20 and 35% at range 10...

its roughly comparable of a boost to SVT really just shunting part of the DPS boost to a HP boost...

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:51 PMSpoof

But since the upgrade is cheaper than most other upgrades I'd say it's a pretty damn good upgrade.


well the upgrade costs 50 muni and 18 mp (since u need to reinforce)... id say it costs the same but shunts the 10 muni to 18 mp...

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 21:51 PMSpoof

Also using Vet 3 Cons is a pretty bad comparison, even to other vetted infantry in my opinion. The gap between Vet 0 and Vet 3 Cons is huge.


agreed
Pip
13 Nov 2020, 01:08 AM
#445
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 20:44 PMgbem


volks have greater dps at most ranges during vet 0 however the opposite true for vet 3 vs vet5... vet 0 volks are pretty balanced overall though vet 5 may be arguable




ehh rifles dont get that massive vet boost either... only cons get massive accuracy and RA bonuses while grens get a large DR boost and accuracy bonuses




Rifles get a combined 38% RA boost, Volks get 24%, this is on top of rifles having a better target size than Volks by default. They also have the potential of double BARs (Even a single one is better than STGs, to my knowledge)
13 Nov 2020, 02:19 AM
#446
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 01:08 AMPip


Rifles get a combined 38% RA boost, Volks get 24%, this is on top of rifles having a better target size than Volks by default. They also have the potential of double BARs (Even a single one is better than STGs, to my knowledge)


its a 23% reduction for volks and a 35% reduction for rifles... but afaik volks also get healing in vet4 and a sight bonus at vet 5... or was that changed?
13 Nov 2020, 08:47 AM
#447
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 570 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 18:33 PMPip


I'm not saying you CAN do that, but it seems to be what's expected of OKW. Volks, as you say, get minced by Allied infantry (and vehicles) past early game. It feels like you're "supposed" to replace them with Obers, to be able to compete, but due to Obers late timing, cost, and the fact they need vet/LMG this isn't realistic.

Particularly as you sort of "need" three/four Volks before you tech up, you really don't have the population space to justify Obers, either. It's almost like you're encouraged to have your Volks die. I think this is part (On top of the other numerous benefits thereof) of the reason people really like Fusiliers. Early infantry that actually scales.


Honestly I don't really enjoy 1v1s, so this is mostly theoretical speculation, rather than coming from experience.


Well realistically you cant do that. Two squads cannot fill the gap of four unfortunatetly.
13 Nov 2020, 17:55 PM
#448
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 01:08 AMPip


Rifles get a combined 38% RA boost, Volks get 24%, this is on top of rifles having a better target size than Volks by default. They also have the potential of double BARs (Even a single one is better than STGs, to my knowledge)


Bonuses are multiplicative nor additive.
Pip
13 Nov 2020, 20:50 PM
#449
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



Bonuses are multiplicative nor additive.


Ah, I wasnt sure which it was, thanks. Either way, Rifles still have significantly better RA than Volks at vet3/5.
14 Nov 2020, 00:47 AM
#450
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 20:50 PMPip


Ah, I wasnt sure which it was, thanks. Either way, Rifles still have significantly better RA than Volks at vet3/5.


yeah cus volks get healing and vision in vet 4/5...
Pip
14 Nov 2020, 02:02 AM
#451
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 00:47 AMgbem


yeah cus volks get healing and vision in vet 4/5...


Healing is alright, but isnt a combat statistic. The vision is similarly OK, but only defensively, given that it's an "in cover" bonus, and not as significant as other units vision-in-cover bonuses.

If you're actually fighting other units RA or Accuracy is generally preferable.
14 Nov 2020, 02:28 AM
#452
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 02:02 AMPip


Healing is alright, but isnt a combat statistic. The vision is similarly OK, but only defensively, given that it's an "in cover" bonus, and not as significant as other units vision-in-cover bonuses.

If you're actually fighting other units RA or Accuracy is generally preferable.

The healing is actually quite dope. While not, say... Quantifiable, it is a huge bonus to pressure and field presence. Less so against WFA because the AOE healing and forward retreats designed specifically to minimize the impact of retreating but against soviet its rather powerful in knowing unless the enemy squad headed back to base you will be full HP and they will not.

Vision also has value in picking engagements or seeing what's coming a bit sooner to position support. Again not quantifiable but has as much value as a good commander can extract (which imo is the best kind of "extra" vet for OKW to have)
Pip
14 Nov 2020, 03:56 AM
#453
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


The healing is actually quite dope. While not, say... Quantifiable, it is a huge bonus to pressure and field presence. Less so against WFA because the AOE healing and forward retreats designed specifically to minimize the impact of retreating but against soviet its rather powerful in knowing unless the enemy squad headed back to base you will be full HP and they will not.

Vision also has value in picking engagements or seeing what's coming a bit sooner to position support. Again not quantifiable but has as much value as a good commander can extract (which imo is the best kind of "extra" vet for OKW to have)


Sure, but in DIRECT COMBAT accuracy and RA are still undeniably preferable. The healing and vision are certainly good, they're just not combat stats.
14 Nov 2020, 15:11 PM
#454
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 03:56 AMPip


Sure, but in DIRECT COMBAT accuracy and RA are still undeniably preferable. The healing and vision are certainly good, they're just not combat stats.

But it's part of a big picture. Always having full health while not a direct combat Stat, directly impacts combat.

It doesn't matter how good the RA is if the first shot from an enemy is going to drop a model and lower dps.

I even think that moving the healing back to vet 3 would be enough to really help okws mid game and scaling, helping maintain pressure and get over the healing hump if they go mech.
14 Nov 2020, 16:30 PM
#455
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143

at the time they get health regen there are already medics on the field. also, the models do the firepower. its almost certain that a volk squad won´t win a second encounter with 3/5 models and 60/100% health regenerated.

It´s still a nice feature i´d say. Not useless but they are not strong enough to compensate lost models i guess.

just my 2 cents - flying away again :D
15 Nov 2020, 10:17 AM
#456
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

One way to go would be, to remove 6men crews on loot weapons, so soviets only get benefit on their own stuff.

6men HMG42, Vickers, PaK40 etc. is simply too much.
15 Nov 2020, 10:18 AM
#457
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

One way to go would be, to remove 6men crews on loot weapons, so soviets only get benefit on their own stuff.

6men HMG42, Vickers, PaK40 etc. is simply too much.


way to nerf the weakest faction in the game... can we instead focus on trying to buff SOV and OKW instead of trying to make them unplayable?
15 Nov 2020, 10:20 AM
#458
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 10:18 AMgbem


way to nerf the weakest faction in the game... can we instead focus on trying to buff SOV and OKW instead of trying to make them unplayable?


Because they arn't weakest fraction and this change would be a minor change, but a huge one for 3vs3+ when they are able to refesh everywhere.
15 Nov 2020, 10:22 AM
#459
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

One way to go would be, to remove 6men crews on loot weapons, so soviets only get benefit on their own stuff.

6men HMG42, Vickers, PaK40 etc. is simply too much.


Fully agree. Also remove bundle nades, mg42, rifle nades, put sniper behind a special side tier that offers absolutely nothing else, delay the first LV to the 9min mark, remove tellers, remove tier 4 and make its units doctrinal.

Mg42 bundle nades rifle nades sniper panther brummbar panzerwerfer are all simply too much.
15 Nov 2020, 10:28 AM
#460
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Because they arn't weakest fraction and this change would be a minor change, but a huge one for 3vs3+ when they are able to refesh everywhere.


but they are... OKW and SOV are the two weakest factions ingame and no amount of biased screetching is going to change that...


also about your terrible suggestion
make captured weapon teams 4 man...

but give the maxim mg42 suppression make AT nades come for free T1/T2 cost 80mp and 10 fuel and unlock molotov for free make 7 man come at T3 without side tech then give the T-34-76 proper penetration
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