How Coh2 sold out - and what to do about it

I think you're a relic ass kisser...
(random rant)

lolwut? I uninstalled coh2 two days ago and I'm never gonna play it again

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I plan to.

I did have to laugh when I read the mention of the mortar though. There's a reason why no one used mortars in CoH1, and one of CoH2's major accomplishments that getting them to be useful.

i agree and disagree.

1 vcoh physics were wonky. but coh2 could use a bit more bouncy physics a bit more gore also. i do agree some soldiers get direct hits and stay intact. so you have footstep and track marks, snow, nice smoke, and all but then your soldiers are censored?? did they do this to broaden the audience?if so, when will we get a gore mod.

i agree and disagree.

we can all disagree or agree on this but it's certainly not what makes or breaks the game, or the reason of "how Coh2 sold out"

we can all disagree or agree on this but it's certainly not what makes or breaks the game, or the reason of "how Coh2 sold out"

Well it is you get the shell of what use to be the best RTS this is exactly how COH 2 sold out and the reason the game is not as good.. pretty simple dude.

If oliver stone made a prequel to JFK and instead of doing copious research and exposing important parts of history he just made it into a dumb action movie starring vin diesel you would say that he sold out and that he has cheapened the orignal film.. pretty much the same thing here.

When one of the most complex, intricate and brutal RTS gets dumbed down this is the reaction.

While i agree on the topic i still think the damage tables from small arms are more immersion breaking than the physics.

While i agree on the topic i still think the damage tables from small arms are more immersion breaking than the physics.

Indeed. Small arms fire hardly seems to do anything outside of the first few engagements. After that, infantry battles are all about who throws a better grenade.

I find it a bit strange that explosive weapons seem to do 'realistic' damage vs infantry (i.e. bundle grenades wiping out 5 guards etc, 120mm mortars 1 shotting grenadier squads), while all other forms of damage in this game are toned down (i.e. a panther needing 3-4 penetrating shots to kill a T34/76). It really removes the need for careful infantry positioning such as getting into heavy cover as you will just get stormed and 'naded.

I think a lot of people get the criticism all wrong. Every time arguments like these are presented someone claims the OP really wanted vCOH1.5 etc. Thats not the case.

The problem is that COH2 is a step down in a lot of areas, and certain aspects of the physics and similair mechanics has been toned down or removed to save time in order to rush the game out so that THQ could survive, wich it didnt. When a sequel releases arround six years after the original, I think its sad that the original is better than the sequel in such areas as the OP points out.

Now, I am probably biased as COH2 has dissapointed me in a lot of ways. I get that a lot of the game mechanics has changed because its another team that developed COH2, and that it might be a more DOW oriented team. But that the game is less technically impressive, in some areas, is really shocking, given the age of the original.

Anyways, I believe there are several good reasons why vCOH still has an impressive regulair playerbase, and why I dont see COH2 repeating that success.

Indeed. Small arms fire hardly seems to do anything outside of the first few engagements. After that, infantry battles are all about who throws a better grenade.

I find it a bit strange that explosive weapons seem to do 'realistic' damage vs infantry (i.e. bundle grenades wiping out 5 guards etc, 120mm mortars 1 shotting grenadier squads), while all other forms of damage in this game are toned down (i.e. a panther needing 3-4 penetrating shots to kill a T34/76). It really removes the need for careful infantry positioning such as getting into heavy cover as you will just get stormed and 'naded.

I agree. The new take on infantrycombat is one of the biggest dissapointments of COH2, in my oppinion.

Interesting conclusions given the amount of bugs visible in your 105 american howitzer strike movie. Several shells "dissapear" in that video. Your commend about mortar strikes is also off. The american mortar could hit grens twice and they would still be alive.

cant believe so many of you have missed the point ...

Anyway , his point is that coh has more depth than coh2 in general , which in turn means it was better thought out and better built , that is why he quotes tommy criticising the lack of strategy ( which for me as well is one of coh2 biggest shortcomings ) and brings up other examples which are the physics and their interaction with the environment and the attention to little details like the mangled corpses . He also makes a point about the rng which is supposed to keep things fresh as opposed to skillful use of the ingame abilities in different situations and the sweet taste that comes with that success ( for examle v1 clearing out a howie opposed to ram penetrating or not the tiger ).

Well it is you get the shell of what use to be the best RTS this is exactly how COH 2 sold out and the reason the game is not as good.. pretty simple dude.

If oliver stone made a prequel to JFK and instead of doing copious research and exposing important parts of history he just made it into a dumb action movie starring vin diesel you would say that he sold out and that he has cheapened the orignal film.. pretty much the same thing here.

When one of the most complex, intricate and brutal RTS gets dumbed down this is the reaction.

I like all of the things you have highlighted in this post, and would generally agree that the physics felt more reliable and satisfying in vcoh than in coh2. However, I feel a lot of that is due to the input lag, which makes every single command feel sluggish. In fact it is so bad that by the time my units receive the command to get the hell out of the way of a satchel charge, even with the 2.5 second timer, its too late.

Copied from another thread, here is my point of view on what the game has devolved too.

Relic has deviated so far from what made vCoh so special, the game is hardly recognizable anymore. Having played this franchise almost since the beginning it is difficult to see such a well polished, beautiful game turned into this. I'm not trying to be over dramatic here, it is genuinely sad.

vCoh had so much longevity because it was polished, well balanced (save for a few hiccups after ToV came out) and you never felt cheated after a loss. The game stayed fresh for so many years because there was always something I could point to that I could have done better in order to win. The meta game was simple, yet extremely deep. There were only 3 doctrines, and yet the game never got stale. CoH isn't the franchise to try and turn into a C&C spamfest(*COUGH*Soviet Industry). If I lost, it was because I made mistakes that I could learn from.

With this most recent patch, CoH2 has crossed a threshold it cannot return from. It will never be the polished, tactically exquisite game that its predecessor was. Its practically arcade mode now, it feels like a mod. It would be one thing if CoH2 was released with all of the current content made available for everyone. However, this current system SCREAMS money grab. During the beta, relic promised they wouldn't release game changing commanders for money, and that everyone would play under the same fundamental structure. How can they claim to live up to that statement when they have released Soviet Industry, and Elite Troops? Both of which fundamentally change the way the game is played, and you have to pay for it. But wait, there's more to come! (http://www.coh2.org/topic/10540/stills-from-the-livestream-showing-new-upcoming-commanders)

That doesn't even touch on the now impossible job of balance. It took years to iron out all of the kinks in vcoh, and they weren't releasing new units and abilities once every 2 months. At this rate, the meta will never have time to settle, and we will never get the wonderful opportunity to fully learn how to counter the new units and commanders. By the time the meta has settled, everyone will be on to the new FOM units. People are going to turn away from the game(if this keeps up I know I am) when they feel cheated by being handed a loss before the game has even started. Your turning the game into an arms race of commander choices. A match shouldn't hinge on commander choice, especially when purchased commanders change the game so fundamentally. Too late to come back now though, I guess that's why they called it turning point.

A couple of doctrines and everyone panics. I find the lack of patience....disturbing.

A couple of doctrines and everyone panics. I find the lack of patience....disturbing.

Von, given your preferred Soviet strat, and what the new Soviet Industry commander has done for that strat, I think you can cut us some slack.

Von, given your preferred Soviet strat, and what the new Soviet Industry commander has done for that strat, I think you can cut us some slack.

I sure can, but I feel the need to panic and blow things out of proportion are not needed.

See, I've always found the DoW games to be largely unplayable. They felt boring, two dimensional, and without any sort of competitive depth. The only reason I ever played them was because they were acquired for free (for preordering CoH2 or something, iirc), and the other along with a Humble Bundle I think. I was able to invest a total of an hour in each of the games, including the installation time. I kind of expected this from the games, as they were pretty much given to me without me even trying or wanting them.

But there seems to be a lot of fans of the DoW games, many of whom are playing CoH2. And that's why CoH2 is the way that it is, because let's not forget that Relic was recently acquired by SEGA, who I assume is pressuring them to prove that purchasing the franchise wasn't a poor decision. Which sucks, as it appears that it's forcing Relic to cannibalize their own game.

I think the CoH2 community would be much friendlier if the game had been shipped as "DoW:WW2" to prevent the confusion that exists among so much of the fanbase. CoH2 has never felt like a CoH game. If I ever could say that it has: it's felt like a perpetual Beta test of a CoH game.

A couple of doctrines and everyone panics. I find the lack of patience....disturbing.

The whole "OP DLC commanders release" thing has happened twice now.
EDIT: Including the strong possiblility of nerf once the sales target has been met.

First time around it might have been a silly mistake but this time around it has to intentional...

Even beta testers are offering (sometimes veiled) criticism.
No offence, but why exactly should people who object to this 'business model' be optimistic??

The whole "OP DLC commanders release" thing has happened twice now.

First time around it might have been a silly mistake but this time around it has to intentional...

Even beta testers are offering (sometimes veiled) criticism.
No offence, but why exactly should people who object to this 'business model' be optimistic??

Because certain aspects of the game are fixed over time and with patience, it may be unfortunate that this has happened again, but patch fixes do come shortly after criticism is shown in a constructive manner. I know this would rather be avoided, but this isn't a perfect world. (Which is why I'm currently trying to prove a point with my streak)

I sure can, but I feel the need to panic and blow things out of proportion are not needed.

unfortunately when most ppl think coh2 is underperforning in so many areas compaired to coh any change that doesnt improve things is salt in the gaping wounds , more so when it makes the game unfair , if the majority of the playerbase adored the core design , gameplay and mechanics all this wouldnt have been remotely posible and we d still be 20 k in mp not 4 . It also gets a lot worse since the meta was so stale with spams being the most dominant strats so ppl were already frustrated for many reasons , then they were hyped and let down again , imo its was completely logicaql for all this to happen .

Because certain aspects of the game are fixed over time and with patience, it may be unfortunate that this has happened again, but patch fixes do come shortly after criticism is shown in a constructive manner. I know this would rather be avoided, but this isn't a perfect world. (Which is why I'm currently trying to prove a point with my streak)

I was able to predict the abusive strats the payed dlc would bring for both assgrens and sov industry and i am a random guy not a qualified beta tester , its not unfortunate its deliberate and ppl feel cheated ( another reason for all the madness ).

Because certain aspects of the game are fixed over time and with patience, it may be unfortunate that this has happened again, but patch fixes do come shortly after criticism is shown in a constructive manner. I know this would rather be avoided, but this isn't a perfect world. (Which is why I'm currently trying to prove a point with my streak)

You know, I get that, but this isn't a beta test, nor is it an MMO with monthly subscriptions that propels ongoing development. It's a boxed, released game costing a base $60. How much patience after 'release' are people expected to have for fixes? Especially if it is a recurring trend?

Honestly, I would probably pay a $1 a month paid subscription to COH2 to support ongoing development for the multiplayer game and its community being realized in the form of patches, official tournaments, etc. Maybe not at this point as I'm unsure of how CoH2 can currently be reconciled with its last two releases, but I'm very willing to be convinced otherwise. (The fact that such a method would allow for improvements to be added to the core game, rather than through a commander threshhold alone is enough to convince me.)

But I'm not going to spend a dime on releases that perpetuate an ongoing Beta-test of a multiplayer game. Not to mention the reality that I'm denied an enjoyable multiplayer experience in the meantime.