7 muni Anti Personnel mine

I've been trying this commander a lot since it was released.

The kill Count of the mini-mine is fairly consistenly 1 kill on average.

However, if ppl lay more mines together, could be it goes higher. In general I don't consider that effective though.

I don't think it's unbalanced. The only thing that should be changed wrt balance of mines is the stupid sign that is put up near the s-minefield.

Oh, and in team games the mini-mine is much less usefull because vehicles ignore it and vehicles arrive much faster in team games.

SgtBulldog: For 7 muni you reduce the Ost unit by 1/4-1/2.

How can you say with a straight face, that that is reasonable.

This is a recurring issue with Sov players. They completely overlook the squad size difference, and higher MP cost reinforce per model, between the factions.

In small arms combat, the armor vs numerical advantage, works.
In all effects which ignore armor, it is pure Sov advantage.

Imagine if Ost could place 7 muni mines that kill 2-3 Cons (which no doubt some future DLC Commander will provide).

That is what we are talking about.

In small arms combat, the armor vs numerical advantage, works.

Which is all that ever gets 'balanced'. It seems like many changes are based off the spreadsheet and from theoretical combat vacuums as far as balance is concerned. Greater factors that heavily impact game mechanics aren't really taken into account I feel: (for instance, the dynamic of flanking and frontal/rear armor. Many units (german at least) are impenetrable walls from the front, but pieces of paper from the rear. (There is no side armor, those shots just tend to scatter 50/50 on either side of the vehicles' front or rear.) There's no numerical stat that translates directly towards a unit being used in an effective fashion. There's no stat that causes a unit to use better tactics.

But there is something to be said about the general maneuverability, pathing, and mobility of units on the gameworld, which is often a map design issue, and is almost as big of a factor as any units' stats.

A wide open map will make these 7 muni AP mines relatively ineffective, but on cramped maps, or any map that features a chokepoint, it can be devastating. And you know, that's something that's really hard to balance: when used correctly it is absolutely devastating. When used incorrectly it is useless... Like so many things in CoH2.

Now I personally enjoy having my MP matches feature a fair bit of combat where my units, from the first to the last, are able to hold territory and gather veterancy, and then ultimately field counters to my opponents counters until VPs end or a clear victor emerges.

But the more of a gamble every decision is, and the more volatile and 'all or nothing' aspects of CoH2 just seems to support a style of gameplay where each player avoids as much combat as possible until the first largely uncounterable shock unit hits the field. In an overwhelmingly simplified sense: the first armor units generally evaporate any gains or losses from the early game, and the heavy armor units typically do the same for the middle game.

wat

Sigh, TL;DR:

Units and abilities when balanced in a vacuum are not taking into account the fundamental mechanics of gameplay, which includes positioning, facing, and also maneuverability in the face of both terrain the truesight.

Because these things typically render units and their abilities to be either highly effective or extremely useless, these compounding factors become especially pronounced when mere unit stats are taken into account for balancing.

My conclusion being: This type of balancing leads to players just seeking for gameending shock and power units rather than committing to continuous competition.

And?

This thread is about the 7 Muni mine.

7 Muni mines, when laid correctly, are extremely powerful and are overwhelming, especially compared to the functionality of other mines.

But, they can also be completely useless when used wrong.

A map with a lot of choke points will make those mines easier to use, a wide open one will make them less potentially powerful.

Adjusting and readjusting the stats of the individual mines is only one aspect of looking at these. Their overall function is rather special (A string line can be made, instead of a generic field, etc) which is EVERYTHING that is important to balancing these mines. It's not just the stats, it is the function.

Perhaps my point was wasted in trying to make a point about how this affects the greater game, and it's a trend that runs rather deep in CoH2.

So what?

I'm not sure what you're fishing to troll for.

These mini mines introduce a novel way of placing mines that can minimize or maximize their effects to a much higher degree than any other mine in the game. This kind of minmaxing of abilities and units (Take the new Tiger Ace for example) make the game increasingly hard to balance as the numerical values of units and abilities are stretched to their thresholds.

The 7 Muni mine has more flexibility than the expensive German minefield. I see the German one as optimal for inserting into the middle of the capzone.

But the problem I have with the 7 muni mine is its small size and clicking intensive activity. You lose time while mining individual pieces.

i think its too cheap to force a retreat, trading 7munition for 30mp or more worth of casualties is way too efficient.

Anyone remember what the devs set as their internal MP to Mun ratio? I know it's changed since a few patches ago.

I think any mine at 7 mun without some drawback is a bit too cheap. However, it shouldn't be much more expensive since it's just a small popper.

And let me reiterate that I really want Relic to let Germans place individual S-mine plots. It's super silly when you hear BC on a stream trying to say that it's fine since you can do some complicated process where you babysit the construction of a single mine and cancel it just to get a 20mun single s-mine.

Which I should also point out that a 20mun single s-mine has a helluva lot more killing potential.

Anyone remember what the devs set as their internal MP to Mun ratio? I know it's changed since a few patches ago.

I think any mine at 7 mun without some drawback is a bit too cheap. However, it shouldn't be much more expensive since it's just a small popper.

I think they mostly balanced it by looking at the flare trip mine and thinking "it has no flare, so we will make it a bit cheaper". The flare trip mine often fails to kill anything though, so personally I would just make the mini mine 10 munitions as it seems a little better at killing than the flare trip mine.

whoops i already made a post here. ill edit above post and put it here as well.

i remember in vcoh if you didn't build minesweepers and you got hit by a mine it was your fault for not getting minesweepers.

i know coh2 is different and not like vcoh in many ways. but not building a minesweeper, what do you expect to happen?

They go thru to much training to waste it on getting blown up by a mine.

Well, someone else mentioned that part of the issue with minesweepers in CoH2 is that the engineers squads cost the same as basic infantry and have 4 men.

Then again, the sweepers in CoH2 now have more range and survivability due to that.

Following the logic of "just get a minesweeper" we might as well have mines with the impact of a nucleair bomb. If you hit it you insta-lose the game. Shouldve gone minesweeper first noob!

Seriously, the fact that u can detect them with a sweeper doesnt justify them being op.

Btw I played a couple of games as soviets using these. They are insanely spammable, and you can have the enemy take some very easy losses using them. Minesweepers can't be everywhere at once, so the opponent often has no way of avoiding them.

But the problem I have with the 7 muni mine is its small size and clicking intensive activity. You lose time while mining individual pieces.

Good point.

In all these balancing discussions, ppl often forget to calculate the value of time into the equation.

Put simply: the time you spend fiddling around with popper-mine is lost for other actions.

The value of the time to place it is derived from cost and very short.
For that small cost and time it has a great effect when placed in the right place.
That it takes micro to place it is no different that any other mine or action in the game.

It is nonetheless, as I earlier explained, extremely effective vs low count units that rely on armor for conventional survival.

If, for example, Ost had a 7 Muni Mine, it would still take the same time to place, the same micro to place, and cost the same, and have ro be placed in the right place, yet STILL be less effective, due to Sov unit sizes.

The mines are pretty good, but they come in a doctrine with ZERO late game. I don't see the issue? If someone is going with this Commander what are the chances of them not building a DShK? If you see a DShk make a sweeper Pio (sweeper range was increased from 15 to 25 in the patch.)

Having spent more time with the mini-mines I have to admit that it feels a bit cheap, allthough WDL has got a point.

I found that the micro required is actually less than I thought initially.

A small price increase might be in order (not above 10 muni).