Relief Infantry need rework？

I'll say it again, if I want Osttruppen I'll go for the Osttruppen commanders. I have absolutely no interest in getting them if I play Lightning War.

Nonsense. If the JU87 strafe was replaced with a non-muni ability, people would take notice of how good this is. 60 muni to get 3 Osttruppen squads is batshit OP.

I'd test replacing relief infantry with double AT-rifle Osttruppen on Festung Support and simply reducing the CP requirement for relief infantry on Lightning War to 3-4 (additional buffs might overpower that doctrine). Relief infantry is not too bad if you use it while already having one or two Osttruppen squads.

However, in an ideal off-topic world I'd move all abilities from Storm Doctrine to Festung Support and turn Storm Doctrine into a much more offensively oriented doctrine (with abilities like stun nades, suppression strafe from CAS and P4 with short gun with vet 1 barrage ability and smoke launchers). Currently Storm Doctrine and German Mechanized are just better versions of Festung Support.

Nonsense. If the JU87 strafe was replaced with a non-muni ability, people would take notice of how good this is. 60 muni to get 3 Osttruppen squads is batshit OP.

And if the Relief Infantry's Osttruppen were replaced by Obersoldaten nobody would ever use the JU87. See? I too, can make up hypothetical scenarios that have nothing to do with reality.

You missed the point of what I was saying. If I play a non-Osttruppen doctrine I don't want Osttruppen. The playstyle of Lightning War is a complete antithesis to the way Osttruppen work. The idea of that ability works perfect for Festung Support, however.

The playstyle of Lightning War is a complete antithesis to the way Osttruppen work.

Its not a complete antithesis to way the ability works though. Its a g43 commander, which means your squads are more aggressive and probably taking heavier losses

I usually build lots of pgrens when I have g43s, so more snaring squads to screen the Tiger is always helpful

Its not a complete antithesis to way the ability works though. Its a g43 commander, which means your squads are more aggressive and probably taking heavier losses

I usually build lots of pgrens when I have g43s, so more snaring squads to screen the Tiger is always helpful

But then you're bleeding PGren manpower to get Osttruppen which isn't the best of ideas.

You could just as easily flank with Grens without having to bleed your manpower and keep munis for JU87 or Tactical Movement.

Build a new 5 man conscript like unit out of mixed gren and volk models and call it "volksturm". Mirror the ability with the Soviet one. Possibly give access to a weaker MG34 (or captured DP34 or SVT) at T4. A random selection of weaponry like the old Soviet irregulars would certainly also be interesting.

Fixed and now the ability has some character. I don't think anyone would disagree the hordes of ostruppen in coh2 are rather unrealistic, they were few in number and saw little front line service in reality compared to the more common volksturm by latewar.

But then you're bleeding PGren manpower to get Osttruppen which isn't the best of ideas.

The entire point is that you'll be bleeding it anyway. It only hurts you if your kills aren't making up for it too

Rapid Conscription is fine, but Relief Infantry isn't so good in my opinion. By the time you use it your fresh Ostruppen squads will be facing some vet 2 infantries that possibly have some weapon upgrades. They just end up getting shredded and unlocking their LMG42 requires a lot of tech and additional munitions. Maybe limit the ability to 2 Ostruppen squads but have them start with their LMG?

Yea exactly this. You just end up with a severe MP bleed afterwards as well.

I'd just say both abilities have their costs out of wack at this point.

Using the pqumsieh model of resources' relative value (1 Munition = 2 Manpower, 1 Fuel = 2 Munitions), and assuming Wehrmacht will be taking only Grenadier losses that have to be reinforced while Soviet Union will be taking only Conscript losses that have to be reinforced...

Rapid Conscription's costs: 120 Munitions = 240 Manpower, 12 dead Conscripts reinforced at 20 Manpower a head = 240 Manpower, add both figures together for a theoretical equivalent of 480 Manpower.
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Rapid Conscription's returns: 2 Conscript squads which are 240 Manpower each for a total of 480 Manpower's worth of units gained from the ability.

Relief Infantry's costs: 90 Munitions = 180 Manpower, 15 dead Grenadiers reinforced at 30 Manpower a head = 450 Manpower, add both figures together for theoretical equivalent of 630 Manpower.
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Relief Infantry's returns: 3 Osttruppen squads which are 200 Manpower each for a total of 600 Manpower's worth of units gained from the ability.

Therefore, Rapid Conscription is probably going to give you the exact same amount of Manpower that you put into it as you get out of it while Relief Infantry will also probably cost you 30 Manpower for the privilege.

Naturally, it's a bit more complex than 12 dead individual Conscripts and 15 dead individual Grenadiers, but since

• It's really kind of dangerous to be risking the individuals of cheaper-to-reinforce weapon teams
  
• Getting more expensive infantry to get popped like Penal Troops or Panzergrenadiers increases the relative cost of making use of these abilities
  
• Its use means pushing yourself to risk squad wipes and one squad wipe basically means you're overpaying
  
• The now-lower duration doesn't give you as much breathing space if the enemy declines to fight you to prevent fueling the ability...
  

I feel like it is fair to state the ability doesn't give its user a lot of value from it aside from very indirect benefits like how it might make the enemy avoid fighting you for a minute, lets you turn Munitions into Manpower in an oblique way (though this also requires you spent more Manpower to do this too...), and maybe the fact it'll give you units without a required build time. Problems with getting vet 0 squads long after every other mainline infantry unit should have some veterancy aside, I think a cost reduction for both abilities is at least a necessary start for them.

Speaking for Relief Infantry only here.

The ability is fine if you don't expect to get 3 Osttruppen on your first try. Settle with 1 Osttruppen squad and use that Osttruppen squad to get more the next time you use it. If you time it well, you should easily be getting 3 Osttruppen squads when using the ability twice, without having to suicide expensive Grenadier models.

The actual problem is the CP requirement of the ability. No one is going to bother to spend resources to get unvetted Osttruppen at the 6 CP mark. They'Il only be a manpower sink in terms of reinforcement cost and pop cap. They'Il be up against vetted upgunned mainlines and elites. Worst of all, they can't even dig trenches or build sandbags to save their lives.

I'd say, just move the ability to 3 CP and be done with it, if it can't be replaced.

It could also be redesigned to replace up to 2 lost squads with Osttruppen and be kept at 6 CP, so you can time it when you're sure to lose a squad (e.g. see Shocks on your retreat path). Kind of like Allied War Machine in CoH1.

A video featuring relief infantry. It's quite derpy fun game, but i hope you guys enjoy it.

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agree the biggest issue with both abilities is that they arrive far too late to have much impact. 3cp sounds fair and if it should turn out to be too effective, the price and/or duration could be tuned accordingly.