Incendiary barrage for panzerwer

Come on, german armor isn't important anymore. All allii AT-guns overperform hard and had to be nerfed since all heavies got nerfed in armor and DPS. While German PaK now struggle versus non-doc vehicles like Comet or Churchill, situation should also be for Allis. At the moment game isn't fair, design faild.

I don't know the exact stats now, but Zis3 would be fine with pen of SU76 (enough to pen most times but struggle at long-range heavy), 6-pounder with stats of US version without HEAT (they get Firefly and free AT-emplacement, also Piats are extremly good)

Come on, german armor isn't important anymore. All allii AT-guns overperform hard and had to be nerfed since all heavies got nerfed in armor and DPS. While German PaK now struggle versus non-doc vehicles like Comet or Churchill, situation should also be for Allis. At the moment game isn't fair, design faild.

I don't know the exact stats now, but Zis3 would be fine with pen of SU76 (enough to pen most times but struggle at long-range heavy), 6-pounder with stats of US version without HEAT (they get Firefly and free AT-emplacement, also Piats are extremly good)

M8 what does any of this have anything to do with giving the werfer a new ability.

Come on, german armor isn't important anymore. All allii AT-guns overperform hard and had to be nerfed since all heavies got nerfed in armor and DPS. While German PaK now struggle versus non-doc vehicles like Comet or Churchill, situation should also be for Allis. At the moment game isn't fair, design faild.

I don't know the exact stats now, but Zis3 would be fine with pen of SU76 (enough to pen most times but struggle at long-range heavy), 6-pounder with stats of US version without HEAT (they get Firefly and free AT-emplacement, also Piats are extremly good)

According to coh2db.com zis and su76 already have same pen. But different damage.
Ost has teller for free and axis have better hh at in damage and pen.

You are forgetting that the panther starts at 260 armour. Hihgest soviets non doc is 150. Usf is 160. Churchill and comet are 240 and 290 for ukf.

Pen for the zis/su 76 is n/m/f 200 190 180 at vet0. At vet 3 its 260 247 234.
Pen for the pak is n/m/f 210 200 190 at vet 0. At vet 3 273 260 247.
No consider the armour values and wich at gun is actualy overpreforming now?

According to coh2db.com zis and su76 already have same pen. But different damage.
Ost has teller for free and axis have better hh at in damage and pen.

You are forgetting that the panther starts at 260 armour. Hihgest soviets non doc is 150. Usf is 160. Churchill and comet are 240 and 290 for ukf.

Pen for the zis/su 76 is n/m/f 200 190 180 at vet0. At vet 3 its 260 247 234.
Pen for the pak is n/m/f 210 200 190 at vet 0. At vet 3 273 260 247.
No consider the armour values and wich at gun is actualy overpreforming now?

You have to look at the hole scenario.

e.g. Panzer 4 vs T34. They have same HP and will need 4 shots of AT-gun. Whay one of them is more expensive? Because it has better stats, but the advantage isn't really present. Panzer 4 is slower and also engine-damage is a larger disadvantage than for T34. Beside Penals makes a way better supporter of Zis than Grens or Schreck-crews for PaK40 (which simply gets steam-rolled by a good T34 micro).

Not saying that a good used PaK40 is bad, but as line-up it is worse than Zis, which still can be used to kill support weapons or desrtoy Bunkers, while having 6 crew-members and the option for merge. Simply can used as non-brainer unit while.

Overall, OP. OP in the hand of somebody understading the unbalanced game and uses merge.

And I don't want that CoH becomes a AoE clone, everyone building the same orders. The game becomes stupid at the moment. It can't be balanced if the micro-managemet and options of one fraction are overall worse than of the other.

And Panzerwerfer is one unit of the hole, it is worse than Katjusha. Has the bonus to suppress to hold points. If it woulnd't have that option it would be more clear how bad the line-up of Ostheer is. xD

Edit: Simply look more at CoH1, the tank/AT-gameplay was way superior to CoH2.

M8 what does any of this have anything to do with giving the werfer a new ability.

What is the problem of the supidity of this community? Because they don't look at the big whole.

I think that is an answer for you.

According to coh2db.com zis and su76 already have same pen. But different damage.
Ost has teller for free and axis have better hh at in damage and pen.

You are forgetting that the panther starts at 260 armour. Hihgest soviets non doc is 150. Usf is 160. Churchill and comet are 240 and 290 for ukf.

Pen for the zis/su 76 is n/m/f 200 190 180 at vet0. At vet 3 its 260 247 234.
Pen for the pak is n/m/f 210 200 190 at vet 0. At vet 3 273 260 247.
No consider the armour values and wich at gun is actualy overpreforming now?

Your kinda disregarding the fact that ost tank have to do most of the heavy lifting unlike other factions. So for other factions at guns zoning your tanks out doesn't impact you as much as it would for OST.

What is the problem of the supidity of this community? Because they don't look at the big whole.

I think that is an answer for you.

Big Whole??? do you mean whole picture or Big picture??
My Question is why on earth is anyone discussing problems of ost in a thread about giving the werfer a new ability. If you wanna talk about the overall short comings of OST there are other threads for that.

Big Whole??? do you mean whole picture or Big picture??
My Question is why on earth is anyone discussing problems of ost in a thread about giving the werfer a new ability. If you wanna talk about the overall short comings of OST there are other threads for that.

Because only buffing one unit will open an other problem. So the buff has to be decent, while it still important to look at other units to bring the problems to a point.

e.g. Ostheer has 3 non-doc main AI vehicles. Ostwind, Brummbär AND Panzerwerfer. Beside the is StuG E (which sucks)

Whats the point of only looking at one fraction? Maybe the problem why one unit sucks is because of an other fractions line-up or feature? Maybe micro-manage problems or less counter options?

German support-weapons are often one-shots for Scot, so why the option for Panzerwerfer should be a problem then? Maybe the Scot is OP? Maybe StuG E isn't that bad, but the rest is simply OP? That are important things to look at, not speaking about Panzerwerfer. -> looking at the big whole alias "das große Ganze".

You have to look at the hole scenario.

e.g. Panzer 4 vs T34. They have same HP and will need 4 shots of AT-gun. Whay one of them is more expensive? Because it has better stats, but the advantage isn't really present. Panzer 4 is slower and also engine-damage is a larger disadvantage than for T34. Beside Penals makes a way better supporter of Zis than Grens or Schreck-crews for PaK40 (which simply gets steam-rolled by a good T34 micro).

Not saying that a good used PaK40 is bad, but as line-up it is worse than Zis, which still can be used to kill support weapons or desrtoy Bunkers, while having 6 crew-members and the option for merge. Simply can used as non-brainer unit while.

Overall, OP. OP in the hand of somebody understading the unbalanced game and uses merge.

And I don't want that CoH becomes a AoE clone, everyone building the same orders. The game becomes stupid at the moment. It can't be balanced if the micro-managemet and options of one fraction are overall worse than of the other.

And Panzerwerfer is one unit of the hole, it is worse than Katjusha. Has the bonus to suppress to hold points. If it woulnd't have that option it would be more clear how bad the line-up of Ostheer is. xD

Edit: Simply look more at CoH1, the tank/AT-gameplay was way superior to CoH2.

Out of the t34 p4 wich gets penned far more feqently and wich gets armour bonusses with vet? The p4 does. The p4 has a higher chance to bounce a zis tje a t34 has of bouncing a pak shot. In the t34s case its 0%. A vetted p4 can bounce lower vet zis3 and su76. The p4 has many many doctrines wich give ptac, wich greatly increases its survivability for a small muni fee and tiny micro tax.
Not saying t34 is bad but its cheap for a reason.
Also that you have to say a well micro t34 can handle a pak40. A less well microed p4 wich has much better dps overall and reguraly kills multyple models in on shot can handle a zis better because its ai dps is not on its bow mg.

A a gren or pgrens squad is also a lot better at clearing out a zis then sov cons or penal crear out a pak40. The tricky part is getting them there at full health esp pgrens or lob their fantastic wiping nades. In fact ost excels in near or one hit wipes. Riflenade bundle nade teller smines to an extent brumbar and pwerfer all are quite capable in this regard.
The only option soviet have non doc is a lucky siz or su76 arty barrage. But that fine cus of 6 men squads acros the board.

Merge is without a doubt ussefull. But its only transvering hp. Nothing more. You still end up paying antyhing from 17mp to a 100mp.

As for they katty being better i do not agree. The katty is more vunerable because it has even less armour and small arms hurt it reliably. Its only good at wiping in a very short range barrage. Its barrage is spread out over a much longer time. It has no turret and cant benefit from something like ptac wich to my knolidge the werfer can. The one advantidge for the katty is the shorter travel time of the rockets.

As for the abilities of werfer and katty. Both are pretty usseles. If the werfers gets changed so should the katties.

Because only buffing one unit will open an other problem. So the buff has to be decent, while it still important to look at other units to bring the problems to a point.

e.g. Ostheer has 3 non-doc main AI vehicles. Ostwind, Brummbär AND Panzerwerfer. Beside the is StuG E (which sucks)

Whats the point of only looking at one fraction? Maybe the problem why one unit sucks is because of an other fractions line-up or feature? Maybe micro-manage problems or less counter options?

German support-weapons are often one-shots for Scot, so why the option for Panzerwerfer should be a problem then? Maybe the Scot is OP? Maybe StuG E isn't that bad, but the rest is simply OP? That are important things to look at, not speaking about Panzerwerfer. -> looking at the big whole alias "das große Ganze".

That much consideration is fine but pointless. Like the mod team though 0cp tied to t4 TA was a good idea after much consideration. Oh and look what happened. It's better to introduce a feature that seems like a semi decent idea and then balance or even remove it(like self repairing t70 sounds like a good idea but how that turned out).

Out of the t34 p4 wich gets penned far more feqently and wich gets armour bonusses with vet? The p4 does. The p4 has a higher chance to bounce a zis tje a t34 has of bouncing a pak shot. In the t34s case its 0%. A vetted p4 can bounce lower vet zis3 and su76. The p4 has many many doctrines wich give ptac, wich greatly increases its survivability for a small muni fee and tiny micro tax.
Not saying t34 is bad but its cheap for a reason.
Also that you have to say a well micro t34 can handle a pak40. A less well microed p4 wich has much better dps overall and reguraly kills multyple models in on shot can handle a zis better because its ai dps is not on its bow mg.

Pnz4 armor bonus doesn't hold with the extra price it costs. It doesn't perform better than T34. Not saying Pnz4 is bad, but it simply doesn't has the correct price. If is would survive 5 Zis hits instead of 4 maybe.

And as I said, look at the support of the PaK40. Soviets can hold better. e.g. I never saw a german Tank trying to road-kill a Penal with upgrade, while it is easy with T34 to roadkill PnzGrens or Grenadiers because of Faust-animation.

A a gren or pgrens squad is also a lot better at clearing out a zis then sov cons or penal crear out a pak40. The tricky part is getting them there at full health esp pgrens or lob their fantastic wiping nades. In fact ost excels in near or one hit wipes. Riflenade bundle nade teller smines to an extent brumbar and pwerfer all are quite capable in this regard.
The only option soviet have non doc is a lucky siz or su76 arty barrage. But that fine cus of 6 men squads acros the board.

Dont forget the 6men squad, also Zis can support the defensive by barrage.

Geballte Ladung of PnzGrens isn't much better than normal non-doc grenade of Brits. It is no wiping nade, it is overpriced and has worse range in comparison. I can't hear "wiping-nade" anymore, it is simply not true.

Yep, Tellermines are good. Shouldn't fuck T70 instant, but T70 shouldn't be that op as well. Sad situation.

S-mines have shields.

Brummbär is good, but also a joke. Scot can perform same way, while beeing in save distance and be protected by 60 range tank-hunters.

Try normal soviet mortar, you will counter Ostheer's mortar with ease.


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In fact Ost and West lost all real advantages they had in their fraction design, while not getting micro benefits or real alternatives outside of commanders. It is my favorite argument, for me the fraction-design faild after these 7 years of balancing.

Merge is without a doubt ussefull. But its only transvering hp. Nothing more. You still end up paying antyhing from 17mp to a 100mp.

Preventing pressure is a very powerful ability. Also preventing the Vet. Same for Maxim with 6men, able to manage a battle way longer, because they don't have fear real grenades and maxim is more or less ignoring counter-suppression. If Ostheer also gets 6 men squad at Maxim it would be game-breaking as hell, because it is a good weapon.

As for they katty being better i do not agree. The katty is more vunerable because it has even less armour and small arms hurt it reliably. Its only good at wiping in a very short range barrage. Its barrage is spread out over a much longer time. It has no turret and cant benefit from something like ptac wich to my knolidge the werfer can. The one advantidge for the katty is the shorter travel time of the rockets.

For me it sounds like Katjusha is better. Because also PnzWerfer has to shoot up to min-range. And then the Katjusha has way more potential while fighting versus smaller squads.

As for the abilities of werfer and katty. Both are pretty usseles. If the werfers gets changed so should the katties.

I see it the same.



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All together, I am modding this game since years, playing it since years. There are so many unfair mechanics simply are a joke never got fixed.

e.g. Remove UHU when it isn't possible to fix the minimap-bug and overwork its.

Pnz4 armor bonus doesn't hold with the extra price it costs. It doesn't perform better than T34. Not saying Pnz4 is bad, but it simply doesn't has the correct price. If is would survive 5 Zis hits instead of 4 maybe.

And as I said, look at the support of the PaK40. Soviets can hold better. e.g. I never saw a german Tank trying to road-kill a Penal with upgrade, while it is easy with T34 to roadkill PnzGrens or Grenadiers because of Faust-animation.



Dont forget the 6men squad, also Zis can support the defensive by barrage.

Geballte Ladung of PnzGrens isn't much better than normal non-doc grenade of Brits. It is no wiping nade, it is overpriced and has worse range in comparison. I can't hear "wiping-nade" anymore, it is simply not true.

Yep, Tellermines are good. Shouldn't fuck T70 instant, but T70 shouldn't be that op as well. Sad situation.

S-mines have shields.

Brummbär is good, but also a joke. Scot can perform same way, while beeing in save distance and be protected by 60 range tank-hunters.

Try normal soviet mortar, you will counter Ostheer's mortar with ease.


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In fact Ost and West lost all real advantages they had in their fraction design, while not getting micro benefits or real alternatives outside of commanders. It is my favorite argument, for me the fraction-design faild after these 7 years of balancing.



Preventing pressure is a very powerful ability. Also preventing the Vet. Same for Maxim with 6men, able to manage a battle way longer, because they don't have fear real grenades and maxim is more or less ignoring counter-suppression. If Ostheer also gets 6 men squad at Maxim it would be game-breaking as hell, because it is a good weapon.



For me it sounds like Katjusha is better. Because also PnzWerfer has to shoot up to min-range. And then the Katjusha has way more potential while fighting versus smaller squads.



I see it the same.



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All together, I am modding this game since years, playing it since years. There are so many unfair mechanics simply are a joke never got fixed.

e.g. Remove UHU when it isn't possible to fix the minimap-bug and overwork its.

You cant say they are the same when the p4 crearly has better dps overal and can at least bounce at after vet 2. It can bounce has blitz and plenty of doctrines to increase its survivability for lil ammo and micro. The t34 has none of that just rof increase and it only bounces small arms, even the 222 and mg42 ap rounds can pen it sometimes. The higher cost of the p4 completly covers this. That it also dies to 4 at shots is perfectly fine. You cant expect that much more for only 25 more fuel. The p5 and brum already are beefier, no need for the p4 to be so as well.

The penals get a devistating satchel for the fact that without it they are the easist to push around and crush. The pts has longer aim time for first shot and way less damage and pen. As axis you dont see hp go down bye a third in a blink when attempting a crush. Because the shreck has more pen does more damage and the shot is fired faster. It does have a lot longer reload then allied hh at. Axis in general hold the armour and pen advantidge.
The faust bug should be fixed but the deathloop and zis bug as wel.

I also crearly mentioned the 6 man and hp advantidge because of it. Its the reason sov lack non doc nades for example.
The bundle nade is better then a mills bomb. So it justly costs more. The bundle nade does have an decent chance to wipe and so does the riflennade. If you dont like the term wipe nade doesnt take away that it can wipe even full health 6 men squads.
Those nades also are deployed a lot quicker the a zis or su76 barrage. The wiping potetial of wich has been nerfed.
The fact that soviets have very very little wiping non doc unlike ost is the reason the t70 is so good. And that the zis and su76 can barrage. That and teller one shotting all lights. Nothing wrong here.
S mines have shield indeed, but no modelcap a well placed smine field can handely wipe full health or near full health retreating squads. Soviet mines kill 2 max if close enough. Again nothing wrong here.
I am not up to snuff on scott data but its shells have less blast and impact but it is more mobile has greater range and rof. Can shoot different rounds. But has low hp and very low armour when compared. Imo scott is more of an harraser and the brum is breakthough unit.

The normal sov mortar has slightly les rof and acc (not 100% sure on the acc though) way slower barrages and no counter barrage with more then normal mortar range. The sov mortar has a 40 muni single flare at vet 0 and 160hp more. So i in terms of damage i have to disagree here.

When axis capture allied team weapons they are more effective ofcourse. Bigger squads get supressed faster. 6 men soviets are supressed easiest because of it. So even a maxim will supress soviets quicker then it will supres 4 men ost. The lower pen is a non issue when a zis or usf at gun fires at a t34 ir sherman, it will pen 100%. So yes 6 men captured sov team weapons by ost would be broken. And 6 men captured paks etc already give higher pop and still face more armour and more wipe potetial so seems good to me.
The maxim ignoring supression is dumb and should be fixed next to the deathloop.

The katty will only reliably hit those smaller squads at dangerously close distances while being extremely fragile. From frather away its a complete rng #### fest to hit anything. The werfer is hit or miss but when it hits it hit like a bus.

Glad we agree katty and werfer vet abilities suck.

...

There are more things we agree, but I simply have an other perspective/look on the situation.

Where I can't agree is the penal-argument. I understand that they get the AT-option, but the ability iself is protection enough to make tank-play as german (less range) only be cancer. An ability which isn't needed if a Cons is near. It comes together that engine damage works unfair.

Also there is no need of T70 high DPS anymore. Also I think it shouldn't be a fuk by mine. Maybe 10% health left and inmobile.

- T70 can also Pen german tanks.
- Even Scot can, which is OP as hell (should get shell of StuG E)

Also there is no need of T70 high DPS anymore. Also I think it shouldn't be a fuk by mine. Maybe 10% health left and inmobile.

The Reigel mine already does almost exactly this... Leaves a t70 with 20% hp and immobilized

Tellers just shouldn't one-shot light tanks. Simple as that. HTs and Cars sure, but not t70, AEC, SU76, etc.

There are more things we agree, but I simply have an other perspective/look on the situation.

Where I can't agree is the penal-argument. I understand that they get the AT-option, but the ability iself is protection enough to make tank-play as german (less range) only be cancer. An ability which isn't needed if a Cons is near. It comes together that engine damage works unfair.

Also there is no need of T70 high DPS anymore. Also I think it shouldn't be a fuk by mine. Maybe 10% health left and inmobile.

- T70 can also Pen german tanks.
- Even Scot can, which is OP as hell (should get shell of StuG E)

Okay its good to see different perspectives.

The first shot out of the ptrs in an engagement comes pretty late. A blitz p4 or p5 can reach them and push them around or outright crush them before a ptrs shot is fired. Negating the snare of cons if they are near.
Ptac prevents you to use or click the target with at nades within the smoke.

Try a t34 one of the 2 shrecks usualy hits and always pens. Makig it almost always vunerable to a snare in those situations. It has no get out of jail for almost no cost abilities.

I am not saying to chamge this. A p4 is more expensive and should require some more effort to take out/have a lil easier time to escape/deflect damage.
What should not be possible is to always push around or crush the worst handheld at in the game unpunished.

I seperate tank combat and td,s.
In terms of med tanks (not counting panthers comets) and med td,s its all fine and rocket arty except vet ability its fine atm.

Heavy td,s and heavies its not fine. Heavies come out way to early. Heavy td,s while needed esp on the allied side cuz axis have more acces to more leathal and heavier armoured tanks doc and non doc. Because if this and ni deflection damage the heavy td,s do to good of a job accros the board.

The Reigel mine already does almost exactly this... Leaves a t70 with 20% hp and immobilized

Tellers just shouldn't one-shot light tanks. Simple as that. HTs and Cars sure, but not t70, AEC, SU76, etc.

I know, I am modding at the moment. Trying to make more individual effects. Some more realism while having the vanilla CoH feeling.

e.g.
full-health light vehicles only get engine damage, but stay with ~10% health with 30% chance of decrew. (222, AEC, 251, etc)
full-health mediums get engine damage, get 3sec freeze, under 70% health destroyed tank-tracks
heavy get immobilized by destroyed tank-tracks

Riegelmine overworked, way less DPS but destroyed tank-tracks.


When I finished, I will open the test-mod. Like I did with everything I made.

I know, I am modding at the moment. Trying to make more individual effects. Some more realism while having the vanilla CoH feeling.

e.g.
full-health light vehicles only get engine damage, but stay with ~10% health with 30% chance of decrew. (222, AEC, 251, etc)
full-health mediums get engine damage, get 3sec freeze, under 70% health destroyed tank-tracks
heavy get immobilized by destroyed tank-tracks

Riegelmine overworked, way less DPS but destroyed tank-tracks.


When I finished, I will open the test-mod. Like I did with everything I made.

Is your mod avialable and what is its name if it is. I am really interested to try it.

e.g.
full-health light vehicles only get engine damage, but stay with ~10% health with 30% chance of decrew. (222, AEC, 251, etc)

I'm sorry but what? I respect the fuck out of anyone who can use the mod tools, but you want to add a 30% abandon chance???? Why???

To what mines under what scenario? I thought you were only talking about Tellers but you list 222 as one of the vehicles that would get abandoned critical

The Reigel mine already does almost exactly this... Leaves a t70 with 20% hp and immobilized

Tellers just shouldn't one-shot light tanks. Simple as that. HTs and Cars sure, but not t70, AEC, SU76, etc.

I think Ostheer would need to be buffed in another way to compensate then

I think Ostheer would need to be buffed in another way to compensate then

I'd ask for your suggestion but we're going far enough off-topic