The Rocket Artillery Problem (and Other Infantry Banes)

Throughout the history of CoH it has been argued that in 2v2 and up rocket artillery is very detrimental to infantry play. The following is my opinion, but I am curious about the general consensus regarding this type of units and the gameplay revolving around them.

I think there are two main gameplay reasons for the existence of artillery in general, and rocket artillery in particular:

1. Breaking up static stalemates. I got 2-3 mgs & AT guns on this point, you have 2-3 mgs and AT guns on that point, we stand around looking at each other WW I style. Artillery comes in and forces me to reposition, creating an opening that you can exploit.

2. Anti-blob. You A-move those squads of whatevers, frontally mowing down my MGs, I target your blob, you get wrecked, you ragequit.

Cool, but more often than not you see rocket artillery being used mid-to-close range to obliterate single squads. The problem with that is that it tends to come out of nowhere, because you cannot realistically scout ahead every time you are capturing a frontline sector, and it can wipe your squad even if you retreat as soon as human reflexes and latency allow.

You will see this happening everywhere, from pro 1v1 World Championship games to 'pro' 4v4 random team matches. And frankly, it is just not fun.

I've seen arguments that this is the only way to deal with some late game powerhouse infantry squads with high vet and/or weapon upgrades. But I feel like if that is true, then this is a serious problem in its own right. It may be rose-colored nostalgia glasses, but it always seemed to me that in vCoH infantry battles would continue to be a thing throughout the game. Now, they kind of are, in 1v1, until the HE rounds (whether tanks or arty) start flying everywhere, veterancy starts dropping, and infantry squads gradually turn into manpower-bleeding, VP capping, AT-grenade dispensing trash units. This is only exacerbated by the (otherwise great) upkeep mechanic, as the more you invest popcap into vehicles, the less MP you have spare to reinforce the squads getting decimated by afore-mentioned vehicles. It feels like rocket artillery, and heavy tanks to a lesser extent, are the primary cause of the effect, as they are best at bleeding infantry and wiping high-vet squads.

It may be that this was caused overall by the power creep over the years, as squad survivability versus explosive weapons is essentially unchanged since release, while the variety of HE sources has increased greatly.

This is getting into essay territory, so I'll stop now. What do you think about this trend? Do you feel measures like the Gren damage reduction with veterancy should be applied to more (all?) squads? Please try to stick to gameplay design, rather than balance, discussions as far as possible.

I agree with you. Infantry play tends to completely die out after 20 minutes. I think it's because the ratio between small arms fire damage and explosive weapon damage is completely lopsided in favor of explosives. The game would be more interesting if small arms fire got a boost in effectiveness and/or explosives got a nerf in damage.

I agree with you. Infantry play tends to completely die out after 20 minutes. I think it's because the ratio between small arms fire damage and explosive weapon damage is completely lopsided in favor of explosives. The game would be more interesting if small arms fire got a boost in effectiveness and/or explosives got a nerf in damage.

Yes let’s buff blobs and nerf their counters. That’s gonna make everything better.

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2. Anti-blob. You A-move those squads of whatevers, frontally mowing down my MGs, I target your blob, you get wrecked, you ragequit.

And this

It may be that this was caused overall by the power creep over the years, as squad survivability versus explosive weapons is essentially unchanged since release, while the variety of HE sources has increased greatly.

And some of this

I think it's because the ratio between small arms fire damage and explosive weapon damage is completely lopsided in favor of explosives.

My take is that infantry has power-creeped so far over the years that they've essentially become "Laminated Glass Cannons". Why the 'Laminated' description? Because their survivability against other infantry seems to also have gone up somewhat; but not enough to match their DPS increase.

Essentially we have a situation where infantry combat is slow enough in the early game to be playable; an 80% HP squad actually fairs a decent chance against a 100% squad with proper positioning/micro, and a single squad in green cover can hold off two squads in yellow cover for a significant amount of time. However, by late game (when vet 3, double-bar, LMG, etc. squads become common), that 20% HP difference almost always translates to an instant loss - and even if it doesn't, infantry DPS is so high that the engagement will only last a handful of seconds, even in yellow cover. Additionally, this has powecreeped so far that what were initially "hard" counters to blobs (i.e. MGs) aren't anymore, since an average blob (3+ LMG squads) can usually win frontally.

As a result, by late-game, infantry isn't the optimal counter against other infantry, like it is in the early game. Instead it's vehicles and explosives, and because vehicles are free to use (i.e. firing a p.werfer is free) and repair, the usual MP trade we see in early game is replaced by an "MP Tax", where one player can make the other lose a ton of MP for essentially nothing. This is then further exasperated by the high MP upkeep in late game (partly thanks to those vehicles), which makes maintaining infantry exceedingly difficult. Essentially, by late game, we're left with a "blob or don't bother" situation.

Provided this assessment is true (I think it is, others might disagree), there are essentially two options to fix the problem:

1. Increase infantry resistances to vehicles and explosives (not ideal)

2. Reduce infantry DPS across the board, so that late game infantry fights stay at the same pace as in the early game. Then reduce the ubiquity and/or effectiveness of vehicles/explosives against infantry.

These options might seem very similar, but the reduction in infantry DPS would actually play a key roll: it would reduces the speed of the game, and make what are now 'soft' (or even ineffective) counters in the late game (i.e. MGs) 'hard' counters. Because of this, positioning and cover become dramatically more important, which brings back the infantry gameplay many people enjoy from the early game while also drastically lowering the stakes; a flanked MG wouldn't result in an instant squad wipe.

From there, we simply reduce the 80-damage AoE for tanks (no more 5-model wipes per shot) and use damage tables to reduce the damage of rockets/arty against infantry as well.


TL;DR: Reduce late-game infantry DPS so that the engagement time between squads stays about the same as in early game, then lower the effectiveness of vehicles/arty against infantry via damage tables. This makes infantry vs. infantry more viable (MGs would be effective late game), reduces arty spam and other "insta-wipe" vehicle usage, while not changing any other aspects of gameplay.

snipe

False. HE and AoE tools had been toned down through out the years and it doesn't compare at all to the levels we had at release.

Crits: flamers and explosives. They had a little chance to completely evaporate units randomly, who were caught in it's AoE.
Death crits: like Stuka Dive bomb. If you were caught in the AoE, any infantry would die. Nowadays it's been removed from most sources and given a linear damage drop off.
Mines: no longer can they 1 shot wipe squad as the damage is capped.
Demo charges: nothing to add to it.
Precision strike on indirect fire units.
Old artillery and mortar AoE profiles and fire saturation. 120dmg 120mm mortar?
Old ISU152 profile?
Long long etc.

The issue is simple. You have to protect 2 VPs and enough strategic points to get resource income. You have to spread somehow thin in 1v1. Popcap is limited.

Now start adding more players. VPs and strat point doesn't increment. Popcap does. Now you have double the amount of units to hold the same amount of points.


Regarding the fact that vehicle gameplay replaces infantry fights, thats the nature of the beast. You don't have many ways to reduce mp drain through fuel expenditure so it's logical to get units which don't represent with reinforcement bleed.
This is nothing new. Stall into call in tanks and having your army be composed of tanks and engineers had been a feature since day 1.

The few moments you don't have tanks been predominant, is when blobs were at it's peak. Example: CAS meta with Gren LMG42 spam with pak walls behind it.

Very good post

The problem with blobs imo is lethality. Mortars and rocket arty could have a much larger AoE with little far damage, consistently outputting a lot of damage to blobs while maintaining the same lethality against individual squads. Imo this would also help define mortars, being able to consistently reduce blob health and crowd control.

This is however quite radical and quite hard to implement, so I doubt it gets teated.