But su76 can camo with doctrine. It's a cheaper alternative and before de barrage price nerf it was used in the meta. A su76 comes early enough to fight P4 and even though it can't solo them, coupled with a zis you could repel and even kill it.
Su76 =/= drugs
Simply because the units they have to face.
The problem with pre-nerf SU76 was that it could force a retreat on a P4 Due to range and high pen and that the barrage was free, so it could displace crew weapons and kill 1-2 models of attacking infantry with no extra cost. Also it was quite cheap, so by the time the enemy got a P4, you already hat ~SU76 out, which made the P4 quite useless.
Since it got a double nerf, nobody builds it anymore. It has become mediocre at best at it's AT and can't really fight infantry anymore (35 ammo is quite pricey, especially if you use it against a moving target). I think the SU76 should get back a little bit of far pen or the cost of the barrage should be reduced to ~20 mun.
Reload is 5 seconds at vet 0, versus Jackson's 6.55s and SU-85s 5.65s.
But the real fun begins when it gets veterancy, as its reload with vet decreases to 3.523s at vet 4.
(SU-85 has 4.57s and Jackson 5.054s at vet 3)
In addition to that it also gets 800HP at vet 2, so it will out-DPS (versus hp) all Allied TDs with ease.
Where do you have those numbers from?
I looked into the game files and Jackson has a reload of 4,375-4,975 (avg 4,675), SU85 has 5,4-5,4. Did I look up the wrong category?
Why not give it more close range pen and higher speed and acceleration?
The concept of the T34 is flanking, this would feed into the aggressive playstyle of Soviets as a cheap throw away unit that pushes into enemy lines to force a break through. The only problem I see atm is that the T34 will always be suicided for rocket arty.
Sorry but what do you mean by "intended"? Axis TDs intended to deal with mediums and allied TDs intended to kill heavies? The point of this topic is not their penetration performance against mediums.
JP4 does self spot at VET2, not by default.
The durability of JP4 is not enough to protect it against the INTENDED allied Super-TDs. 230armor vs 220/240/260 pen of M36. They can penetrate each other with every shot.
Targets of StuG and JP4 are light vehicles and mediums. Allied medium tank is usually 160 armor, making Stug and JP4 pen with 100% chance.
Unlike Axis, with the expection of Soviets Allies do not have access to another tier of tank destroyers that can deal with heavies. This means that their TD must be able to deal with the heaviest armor, otherwise we go back to the "I win"-King Tiger button.
Also, Allies usually don't have much heavy armor, so the Panther is an additional option as a brawler tank or against heavy call ins or heavier British tanks to reliably deal with them. That's why Stug and JP4 don't need the pen to deal with heavy armor.
Also, JP4 has 45 base sight which enables it to spot mediums for itself without being fired back on.
No matter how many time you repeat the same argument it will not become true.
psst, load the game you will see that only 2 out of 5 faction have 2 dedicated TDs stock in 2 different tiers. (actually one since SU-76 can barrage)
Of course this is true.
Without M36 USF could only fight mediums at best, because Stuarts and the US Pak do not have the pen to deal with anything heavier than a Stug. So the M36 needs the pen to damage a Panther and even heavier. It's not well designed, but that's what we got.
I am not suggesting to buff the Panther and nerf the Su-85.
I am simply making some points:
1)Unit should have role in the game.
2) Units should be balanced both in vet 0 and at higher vets. The relationship could change if there is a reason. A unit vetting slower might need to have superior vet bonuses.
3) Unit should be priced according to their role if the role of the JP is to counter enemy mediums and enemy tank destroyer the unit should cheaper than those units.
4) Tds should not have 100% chance to hit and penetrate enemy vehicles at range 60. Else they have little reason to engage in other ranges.
Since you said that SU85 vets faster and better than a Panther, this would destroy the balance from vet 0 units and that Allied TDs would be OP in general, it heavily suggested that you want to nerf/buff some units.
Apart from point 3 I do agree on the rest. Especially for point 4 I would like the game to be slower with bigger maps in general so that tank battles can be drawn out a bit. But for CoH2 it's too late, we need to tweak the current system to the best status possible.
The hole in the theory that they are not meant to fight each other, is that SU-85 is meant to counter the Panther and Ostheer have no stock vehicle to counter the SU-85 so when it comes to vehicles the Panther is their best bet.
Ost has an excellent Pak, even the Stug faires well on paper, and then there are Panzergrenadiers that can deal with TDs very well. The problem is that the last two units have their own problems and therefore are not build which reduces OSTs current options to Pak and Panther. The problem is not the Panther but Panzergrenadiere and Stug in my eyes. If we also look at 1v1 frontal assault scenarios only (like you implicated with the SU85), the Panther does well against Jackson and Firefly (cost-corrected).
To clear things up: What is your suggestion? How much do you want to buff Panther / nerf SU85?
I think it is better so spread out the AT capacity over multiple units. We can see with USF what happens if the AT gun is trash against actual tanks and the bazookas are only mediocre: USF must completely rely on the Jackson from the mid-game onwards.
I am not sure what method you are using to get the numbers but you are still missing my point.
Compare the units at vet 0 and at vet 2 you will probably come to the conclusion that SU-85 trades significantly better at Vet 2.
I do not argue with your stats, because there is nothing to argue. In a Panther vs SU85 engagement, the SU85 performs better at vet 2 than at vet 0 vs the same vet Panther, this is true and I never doubted that. I argue if your point makes that much sense, because your Panther should not regularly exchange shots with a SU85 in the first place.
(Exaggerated example
If your PaK40 faces off against the 6 pounder, and the PaK gets an accuracy bonus while the 6 pounder gets a pen bonus (just making this up as an example), then the PaK will win this fight. This does not mean that the 6 pounder would need a fifth man to become tankier, because it cannot fight off a PaK40. These units just should not shoot at each other.