Proposed Soviet Tech System

Please leave right now if the best thing you have to say is "not going to happen." Did you leave? Good.

Hello readers who are here to not troll but discuss something.

I recently had an idea about how we could re-arrange the Soviet tech tree, I don't really want to explain why I feel such a revamp would be healthy, as if you are interested and still reading, chances are you know why it should be. Feel free to discuss that, just not going to spend time for it in the OP.

Basically the idea is, every tech level is 50% cheaper. However, the units marked with * are locked out, to unlock which, you need to pay the remaining 50%! The reasoning for this is that every Soviet tier has units that would be useful if they didn't come in too late, which can't have it any other way, because they are stuck in a tier with superior units! This fixes just that. Since costs are just too high, you will never want to backtech just to get a few units, say, Penals after you went T2 but your Conscripts can no longer manage! The upgrade would take some time ; not too long, but it would take some, so it would cause some delays. Better build your other tier building in the meantime!

Here goes!

Tier 0:

Medics, as usual.

Conscript Grenades: 150 MP / 30 fuel

You get both grenades, at once, at a 20 fuel discount. This is given to Axis factions by part of default teching, and Americans get it rather cheaply (Smoke and AT grenade are different in their roles but comparable in value, if not the smoke being stronger since it can counter MGs), and Soviets have no reason not to pay so much. Molotov is hardly as effective as a regular grenade anyway. It is cheaper indeed, but it doesn't kill that much for all its area denial unless RNG is on your side.

Tier 1:

Penal Batallion

Scout Car *

Sniper

Scout Car is a vehicle and you don't have enough fuel to build it the moment you get T1, so we don't want to break that balance.

On an important note, I need to be honest here and admit that I don't know much about the priorities of a player who goes T1, as I almost exclusively use T2. Let me know if you feel Sniper should be the upgrade unit instead of Scout Car.

Tier 2:

Maxim HMG

Mortar

ZiS-3 *

ZiS-3 doesn't have much of an excuse to come in so early, earlier than Pak 40 as well. At the stage it can come in, it is very vulnerable and rather pointless, but it can be used only for shooting the lightest of vehicles like Kübelwagen, or sniping defenses. Some people buy T-2 for the AT gun, so nothing changes on that front. What changes is that if you want support teams but have other sources of AT, you can backtech more easily. It's also the one that scales the best further into the game.

Tier 3:

Halftrack

T-70

T-34/85 *

This allows T-70 call-in at a minimum of 25 + 60 = 85 fuel for teching, similar to the 80 required for the USF Stuart. Halftrack comes in at 85 fuel, which is slightly higher than Ostheer Tier 2, but far better than 170 fuel it takes right now, which is about right for such a unit. Since Flamethrower on Ost halftrack requires Battle Phase 2, this would require "Battle Phase 2" equalivent here, which would likely coincide with the T-34/85 upgrade. I am not sure about that bit.

Now the T-34/85. For reasons I repeated in long, elaborate paragraphs in my thread, the link to which you'll find in my signature, I think T-34/85 should replace T-34/76 completely, with a substitute for the doctrinal T-34/85 to be discussed at another time. (there is a suggestion in that thread)

I invite all of you to this discussion and you'll find elaborate explanation of my viewpoint over at that thread, plus some prior discussion, but not here. This thread is not about T-34/85, it is about Soviet teching in general. There should be no doubt that even T-34/76 would be the upgrade unit here in stead of T-70 or the halftrack.

Tier 4:

Su-76

Su-85

Katyusha *


I know that CoH1 locked Marder behind the upgrade for Panzer Elite, but Katyusha is honestly the more impactive unit here. The thing with SU-85 is that it costs 85 Fuel to tech up in this situation still, similar to the 40 OKW fuel (by similar, I mean quite a bit higher than, but still) it takes to tech for the OKW Jagdpanther, the teching of which also brings in other benefits.

Katyusha's performance isn't really a debate topic; it's good. It does its job. It doesn't need a buff in the sense that it should be available earlier. While OKW would still get Stuka earlier, that's a problem with OKW's teching and Stuka. Katyusha is just fine.

So there you have it folks. I hope by this point the "stop wasting your time Relic designed Soviets to pick only 2 tiers / 1 tier and then use call-ins from doctrines" crowd has long left the thread (if you are a part of that crowd and that point is all you can bring to this discussion, know that I won't answer you), let me know what you think about this revised teching system for Soviets. Is it a buff? Yes it is. Does it fall in line with other faction units and their teching costs? Surprisingly, yes.

Stuart and T-70 come at similar prices, Ost Halftrack and Soviet Halftrack now come at similar prices. Sniper is taking longer to build because of the upgrade, but can also be replaced by the Scout Car as I had mentioned earlier.

Su-76 actually comes fairly early now, and SU-85 is no longer so cost prohibitive to tech to; which is the kind of thing you need backing your KV-1s, for example.

ZiS is gated behind its upgrade, but it's also the only unit that doesn't have a reason besides covering the most important role in its tier to be the unlock unit. I guess it arrives too early, which isn't an imbalance but it doesn't feel right. Plus, this times it more like the Ostheer AT gun.

I think that covers all of it! I hope you enjoyed the read and please feel free to share your opinion, but please, ask yourself if you are bringing something to the discussion before you press that reply button!

Thanks!

Edit 1: I am not sure about 50% It might be too much. It might not, I'll see what you guys think. Also, I forgot to mention that you can't upgrade T3/T4 without upgrading T1 or T2, otherwise you would be paying less than you currently do. The whole idea is singling out the units that mean the most for the tier while not letting others suffer from it because they are in the same tier as a later game unit. Doesn't really apply to Scout Car but it has its own reason.

Edit 2: As multiple users pointed out, this change makes T-70 come in too early. Same for T-34/85. To make up for that, the tier cost should be increased to 90 Fuel, with another 90 to unlock T-34/85. Maybe MP changes too, let me know what you think on that.

nvm

Problem N° 1
50 (T2) + 60 (T3) + 70 (T70) - 50f (Initial) = 130f

Yeah, 6-7min T70 rush all day everyday. Stuart sucks, T70 is great cause it's mobile, has insane vision and it's deadly on the right hands. SU starts with fuel, USF not, so Stuart/T70 timings are not equal.

Problem N°2 If you ever consider not locking M3
25 (T1) + 20 (f) > instant M3 at beggining of the game. More time to wipe things on retreat against OKW before shrecks


-.-.--.-.-..--.-.

If your idea is this 50% tech cost:
T1: Penals > M3 + Snipers
T2: Mortar >= Maxims > Zis
T3: M5 > T70 + T34
T4: Su76 + Su85 > Katy

lol

T34-85 should require additional research, like the PE maurader upgrade in coh1.

I dont think t-70 would be a problem, Wher Shreck PGs and volk shrecks can destroy the t-70 smoothly.

I like it this way, because there is a two way tree when building T3, either researching T-34-85 and constructing one, or building a T-70 for a instant advantage, but risk being countered by panzershrecks, and leaving an openning for the Panzer 4 to become effective before the 85 hits.

The need to research T34-85s before construction is very important in balancing this though. Im not sure what the research cost would be.

The first thread was ok, but this one is just plain insane...

Everyone would do conscript spam to t70 rush. I honestly have no idea how you would be supposed to stop it as either axis faction apart from getting it to run over a mine, which a good player will almost never do. Maybe as OKW you'd have a slim chance by putting down mechanized and fuel transferring to a fast puma, but as ostheer you don't even have that.

Problem N° 1
50 (T2) + 60 (T3) + 70 (T70) - 50f (Initial) = 130f

Yeah, 6-7min T70 rush all day everyday. Stuart sucks, T70 is great cause it's mobile, has insane vision and it's deadly on the right hands. SU starts with fuel, USF not, so Stuart/T70 timings are not equal.

Problem N°2 If you ever consider not locking M3
25 (T1) + 20 (f) > instant M3 at beggining of the game. More time to wipe things on retreat against OKW before shrecks


-.-.--.-.-..--.-.

If your idea is this 50% tech cost:
T1: Penals > M3 + Snipers
T2: Mortar >= Maxims > Zis
T3: M5 > T70 + T34
T4: Su76 + Su85 > Katy

The first thread was ok, but this one is just plain insane...

Everyone would do conscript spam to t70 rush. I honestly have no idea how you would be supposed to stop it as either axis faction apart from getting it to run over a mine, which a good player will almost never do. Maybe as OKW you'd have a slim chance by putting down mechanized and fuel transferring to a fast puma, but as ostheer you don't even have that.

Don't be so quick to call something insane man. You pointed out a problem. It's valid, and good for discussion. I wrote this at 4 am so I didn't take the time to think everything through. But this isn't a problem that you can't solve.

Now both of you mentioned T-70, and T-34/85 is indeed quite a bit better than 76, so here is my solution.

Increase the fuel cost to 80-90 for T3, which does put the halftrack later than the Ostheer counterpart, but hopefully balances T-70, and pushes T-34/85 back further, as you need to pay another 80-90 fuel to unlock it.

That should be a simple fix. I thought it was generally agreed upon that T-70 comes in a bit too late, so 90 Fuel should be good enough.

What do you think about that? Conscructive criticism please, calling this insane and dismissing the whole idea because it makes T-70 too fast and I missed something is a good way to ruin every discussion thread in one post.

Nobody good agrees the T-70 comes too late, not when you have good map control. Anything that results in t-70 coming out several minutes earlier than currently will be completely broken gameplay wise.

Even with those new values of 90 fuel for T3, the fuel required for the first t-70 would be reduced by 55 from 190 to 135. Still very much a 7 minute T-70 rush, completely comparable to the USF AA HT rush that already pretty much destroys ostheer, but with far better mobility and all the benefits soviets enjoy over USF.

The current problem with soviet T3 is that it only has value as a rush tech. Not only do your changes make it way stronger as a rush tech, it will now be the go-to choice in terms of lategame performance as well. Conspam with unupgraded T2 to T70 into endless T34/85s every game. You probably won't have to upgrade T2 or grenades at all, you will get such insane map control with the t70 that your opponent won't even be able to counter the first t34/85, nevermind the ones that will follow.

Anything that results in t-70 coming out several minutes earlier than currently will be completely broken gameplay wise.

Even with those new values of 90 fuel for T3, the fuel required for the first t-70 would be reduced by 55 from 190 to 135. Still very much a 7 minute T-70 rush, completely comparable to the USF AA HT rush that already pretty much destroys ostheer, but with far better mobility and all the benefits soviets enjoy over USF.

I don't know what it does in 2v2, but in 650 hours I have never, not once, seen anyone achieve anything with T-70. With Luchs, it is done all the time, and it comes in at a cheaper tech cost even when you factor in the OKW penalty and with more benefits (Flak HQ + conversion repair /heal retreat point)

So what is your solution? Completely ditch the idea of this tech system that gates T-34/85 well while making almost every stock unit available usably early? Unless you disagree that it does that?

I haven't seen T-70 achieve anything, 7 minutes is plenty time to get AT Guns or Panzerschreck, especially if you don't spam Rifle Grenades. I'll take your word for it since you are a high ranked player, but tell me, what's your solution? Just ditch everything? Or do you feel that the rest of this setup is a way forward enough that we should instead be looking for a way to balance T-70? I don't have firsthand experience with a T-70 that didn't get useless 2 minutes after being built, while not killing half as often as a Luchs in the first place. And that's not just when I gave it a fair chance, I mean everyone I played with when I say that.

At 2v2 if T-70 achieves something, it's extremely rare, and I did face a lot of Soviet players who beat my team through using other underpowered units like the T-34 by simply applying superior micro and gameplay, so you can't say that I only face average - players on automatch.

1v1 should be balanced of course, which is why I ask for your solution.

Once T3 or T4 is built, the other is more cheaper (-50%).

About the T-34 issue; once a T-34-76 reaches vet 2 it can be upgraded with a better gun for better pen.

Once T3 or T4 is built, the other is more cheaper (-50%).

About the T-34 issue; once a T-34-76 reaches vet 2 it can be upgraded with a better gun for better pen.

Honestly, this is the best idea ive read so far.

Honestly, this is the best idea ive read so far.

It does nothing to address that SU-76 and M5 Halftrack come in too late however.

And T-34/76 rarely sees Vet 2. Hits that don't penetrate (most of them, which is) don't add up on veterancy. And Panzer IV gets armor skirts at vet 2 for free. Plus, isn't better penetration already one of its Veterancy upgrades? Makes no sense that you would have to buy that. Not to mention the gun would have to be either a 57mm gun or a 85mm gun if you want the least bit of authenticity. T-34/85 is already in the game and not good enough to be gated behind Vet 2, and the 57mm gun acts very differently compared to the 76mm.

Also, this thread is about the OP, so please at least have the courtesy to chime in about that as well. Or it will quickly spiral into off-topic.

Quite ridiculous to be honest.Lets have a fast 7-8 min t-70 ,followed by t-34/85 to roll over stuff.Complement with shocks and finally if needed an is-2.Nice try fanboy.

Quite ridiculous to be honest.Lets have a fast 7-8 min t-70 ,followed by t-34/85 to roll over stuff.Complement with shocks and finally if needed an is-2.

Others addressed the issue before, and I suggested a fuel cost increase. The idea itself still stands. This is just an attempt at making Soviet stock tiers and units more flexible and the faction less dependant on call-ins. Now I hope you have something new and meaningful to add to the discussion, and you can suggest ways on how we could fix such a problem that can indeed appear.

Currently the idea is T3 would cost 90 fuel, same for its upgrade, and that would gate T-34/85 nicely and not make T-70 come in too early.

Maybe your confusion is that you did not read responses? I should update the OP.

Also, I'm an Ostheer fanboy, not a Soviet one. Soviets are too stale and bland to allow that, at least in my opinion. Which is what I am trying to fix here.

Edit: I changed in the OP. I hope that solves your problems with it? Now what do you think?

really dude, c'mon. your sig says you only play 2v2s? maybe you should try 1v1's to see why kind of redicious effect this will have in games?

remember von ivan's 4 minute t70? yeah. the one he got 90 winstreak with?

until you have a firm understanding of the 1v1 gamemode, ya shouldn't really be posting balance suggestions

really dude, c'mon. your sig says you only play 2v2s? maybe you should try 1v1's to see why kind of redicious effect this will have in games?

remember von ivan's 4 minute t70? yeah. the one he got 90 winstreak with?

until you have a firm understanding of the 1v1 gamemode, ya shouldn't really be posting balance suggestions

yep

really dude, c'mon. your sig says you only play 2v2s? maybe you should try 1v1's to see why kind of redicious effect this will have in games?

remember von ivan's 4 minute t70? yeah. the one he got 90 winstreak with?

until you have a firm understanding of the 1v1 gamemode, ya shouldn't really be posting balance suggestions

Okay this is getting ridiculous. You guys all made it very clear.

I claim no expertise on the 1v1 front, but 2v2 is important too. It should be balanced, just like 1v1.

Now you said that these changes make T-70 come in too early; that is fine. 3 others said that before you. I agreed, and I proposed making the tier more expensive and closer to the original. If that is not enough, we can also lock T3/T4 without upgrading a tier first and/or getting both T1 and T2 (like do that or upgrade one to unlock the other unit)


Come on, all I ask of you guys is to be constructive. Cruzz made a good attempt even if he didn't keep himself from throwing in a few insults. I am not here asking for a ridiculous buff to Soviets. It's a design overhaul intending to give every single stock Soviet unit more place in one game, making tiers and these units less mutually exclusive.

If you disagree with something, that is fine. Just say so, (and if you can help it, in a more polite manner) and I will take the time to respond to you and either explain my position, and admit that you are right.

As a 2v2 player I did not see the T-70 coming. That doesn't make me ineligible for making balance suggestions, they are after all, balance suggestions. We are supposed to discuss. Your job as a responder here is to point out where I went right and where I went wrong. Something sounds ridiculous? Emphatise with the poster and try to think why they might have thought the way they did.

You guys all brought up valid points about the T-70 and the T-34/85 (which originally would be even cheaper to tech to than the current 76 is, which is wrong), and I have been in full agreement.

I am not a fanboy. I just want Soviets to be better in design, and not just better in balance. So talk to me about that. Don't point out one flawed thing and then dismiss everything else. If you do, then no ideas will ever get anywhere.

I mean, what's the point of this thread? There is thread about things that are pointless. This thread is about one of those.
I mean, it's good to disscus but what's the point? Relic won't change it.

I mean, what's the point of this thread? There is thread about things that are pointless. This thread is about one of those.
I mean, it's good to disscus but what's the point? Relic won't change it.

Well with that mindset the entire balance subforum shouldn't exist. Or we could remove the forums alltogether and make it an announcement board. Streams could use their own chat too.

Well with that mindset the entire balance subforum shouldn't exist. Or we could remove the forums alltogether and make it an announcement board. Streams could use their own chat too.

There is a difference between talking about effiency of unit, possible swaping, making unit stronger and redesigning whole faction. Its not gonna happen.