Best ideas you've heard today

Okay so something really weird happened.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/31303/best-ideas-you-ve-heard-today/page/1#post_id290670

Here is the original thread. I initially created in the Lobby section because it's about game design and not that much about balance, and a moderator moved it to the balance section. And then, another moderator locked it because it should have been in the Lobby section.

So moderators, please, make a joint decision on what to do with my thread before taking action, thank you. That costed my thread valuable time which could have been used to generate traffic.

The rest of this post is copied from the original post.

And after you read them you'll be like, wow, this is common sense, why didn't we lobby for these ideas long ago?


1. Replace T-34/76 with T-34/85

It's year 1944. Germans have their 1944 units. T-34/85 has no reason to be doctrinal. It's a horrible design decision to have a direct doctrinal upgrade to a stock unit. It's better and more expensive than the Panzer IV, so what? The 76 is utterly useless against any other medium tank, and it is outdated in the game's premise. This simple change would fix a lot of what is wrong with their Soviets, and would finally shut up the "But Soviets are meant to be doctrine dependant, that's why their original units suck!" crowd. And what do we do with the obligatory call-in doctrines that feature the 85? Replace it with a command 76 with offensive bonuses. So now Soviets can finally find options in other doctrines and not be forced to pick either Counterattack, Urban Defense on an urban map or a call-in doctrine everywhere else.

Preemptive answers to expected questions:

- T-34/85 is currently balanced against Panzer IV. All this will change is that it will be more widely available and not tied to a few doctrines which people have to use to have a fighting chance anyway. If anything this forces people to tech up for the 85, and makes T3 somewhat usable.

- No it doesn't replace SU-85. Even if it did, it's not worse than when the select few crutch doctrines always replaced SU-85 instead of a default unit in another tier being a sidegrade to it. SU-85 may have been made obsolete by it in real life, but in game it has better weapon stats and is more suited to the anti-tank role. It's a different unit, the 85 is just a T-34 with a gun that doesn't suck.

- T-34/85's counters won't change, there will still be Panthers around as well.

Summary of benefits:

- Soviets are no longer as dependant on call-in doctrines.

- Soviet T3 is less miserable. T-70 and M5 still need looking into however.

- Soviet T4 isn't the only option if you didn't pick a call in doctrine; T3 actually has a good vehicle that can deal with tanks now.

- Keeps Soviets from skipping tiers as often as they do right now; and gives them a reason to backtech to T3 if they teched to T4 in the first place.

2. Remove OKW's income from Caches and reduce income from Airdrops

This should have been common sense. OKW was designed with the inability to build resource caches in mind, so it is a straight workaround to give them that ability. Meanwhile the salvage ability is really bad; it is good for team weapons (which arguably could be captured by volks and used to better effect than a +5 fuel at times), but it's utterly useless when salvaging a dead IS-2. The salvage ability should give more when salvaging vehicles and scale with larger vehicles; with the M4C Sherman un-salvagability bug fixed.

Another problem is Luftwaffe Supply Drops, the OKW resource penalties should be applied to these. Zero reason they should fully benefit, and it kinda hurts inside that people didn't lobby for this eons ago. Did it really take me to point out that OKW shouldn't benefit so much from caches and Luftwaffe? Or am I yet another clueless nublet thinking he can change something so blatantly obvious? I mean right now OKW gains far more resources from caches than they do from salvaging and that is insane! Coupled with the lack of effective light vehicles on the Allied side (those who are effective like the Scout Car and AAHT are still built only once), you'll very rarely get to actually use the salvage on vehicles mid-game, and when you do get to salvage an IS-2 late game, it surely shouldn't give you just 5 fuel. It would also simultenously fix the problem of OKW tending to lose the game if they lose too many vehicles; if I could safely salvage my dead KT for more than 5 fuel, I would stand a better chance of a comeback. And that KT wouldn't hit the field so ridiculously early in the first place.

Discuss.

And...

Nothing for USF or OST

And...

Nothing for USF or OST

I'm sorry if you feel decieved but I never claimed to have solved all of the problems in the game. So in light of that information, maybe you could focus on the topic at hand?

...
Remove OKW...

yes. it is the best idea i heard today.

but seriously, i agree with no. 2.

I'm sorry if you feel decieved but I never claimed to have solved all of the problems in the game. So in light of that information, maybe you could focus on the topic at hand?

Sure.

First off, the t34/85 is not fairly matched when up against the P4. The p4 will lose 9 times out of ten.

I wouldnt change soviets

You need to either change the call-ins.

Either by tying them to tech or introducing fuel upkeep.

The suggestion to lesson OKW bonuses fron wehr are a good idea.

IMO The normaly time it taks for a KT to come out when not spending fuel is about 35 minutes. (30 if u convert fuel)

IMO ALL Heavies should come around the same time as The KT does.

#1 Good idea, but still need to be playtested to see if that impact more the balance then intended.

#2 Very good ! Abused to often.

Thanks

Sure.

First off, the t34/85 is not fairly matched when up against the P4. The p4 will lose 9 times out of ten.

I wouldnt change soviets

You need to either change the call-ins.

Either by tying them to tech or introducing fuel upkeep.

The suggestion to lesson OKW bonuses fron wehr are a good idea.

IMO The normaly time it taks for a KT to come out when not spending fuel is about 35 minutes. (30 if u convert fuel)

IMO ALL Heavies should come around the same time as The KT does.

I never argued that a T-34/85 didn't win against Panzer IV most of the time. I argued that it is balanced with it. It has better performance, but gets a worse Vet 1 ability, is more expensive and doesn't get vet 2 armored skirts. It also doesn't get an MG upgrade. It is balanced to give Soviets the better medium tank that isn't better in every way. Meanwhile, Panzer IV is indeed superior to 76 in too many ways, and the price difference doesn't help alleviate that. And it's not about balancing the call-ins only; it's that you need a doctrine to build an 85, which feels and is wrong.

KT in my experience, in 2v2, comes at the 20-25 minute mark. I helped my teammates who built other vehicles as well get it as early as 18 minutes when using Luftwaffe Supply and Cache spam. And KT is the best heavy tank in the game.

1 is somewhat fine; buuut

I'd rather have the ability to upgrade vet 2 or 3 T-34s to 85s as a base upgrade. Same for the M4 sherman (76mm gun anyone )

+

Fuel upkeep and the rework of the call-in system.
Balance ost T3/T4 to make it viable again.
Rework OKW.

2 is very solid +1

I never argued that a T-34/85 didn't win against Panzer IV most of the time. I argued that it is balanced with it. It has better performance, but gets a worse Vet 1 ability, is more expensive and doesn't get vet 2 armored skirts. It also doesn't get an MG upgrade. It is balanced to give Soviets the better medium tank that isn't better in every way. Meanwhile, Panzer IV is indeed superior to 76 in too many ways, and the price difference doesn't help alleviate that. And it's not about balancing the call-ins only; it's that you need a doctrine to build an 85, which feels and is wrong.

KT in my experience, in 2v2, comes at the 20-25 minute mark. I helped my teammates who built other vehicles as well get it as early as 18 minutes when using Luftwaffe Supply and Cache spam. And KT is the best heavy tank in the game.

U have to take into consideration that Ost pays alot more in tech to get a p4.

They should be rewarded for it.

I dont see it as fair to have non doc 85's raping everything. Fallowed by IS2's

Mabey it could be a global upgrade to alow for 85's, but i think its more balanced to start with 76's

U have to take into consideration that Ost pays alot more in tech to get a p4.

They should be rewarded for it.

I dont see it as fair to have non doc 85's raping everything. Fallowed by IS2's

Mabey it could be a global upgrade to alow for 85's, but i think its more balanced to start with 76's

Nothing is balanced about the 76mm T-34. It's useless.

It also costs 170 fuel to get there for Soviets. German T3 is cheaper. Are you sure you got your math right?

Not to mention Ostheer teching also gives Rifle Grenades and Panzerfaust for free, both of which are paid upgrades for Soviets. So no, Panzer IV doesn't come in later or at a higher cost, and it still has some solid advantages over the 85 in the form of Blitz, Vet 2 schützen and the doctrinal Panzer Tactician. It's also cheaper and still very effective against the more lightly armored opposition it will face; German armor is usually heavier, keeping in mind the Panther and King Tiger, which are both non-doctrinal heavy tanks; and the omnipresent Tiger, a very effective Ostheer tank that is very common because it is on many doctrines.

So I think you needn't concern yourself on that. Panzer IV would be fine. And non-doctrinal viable Soviet unit, however crazy that may sound, is what we're trying to achieve here.

^^

120 soviet T3 is, you start with 50 fuel as Sov...if you are talking about math.

Ost T3 is around 130 fuel, but mostly gets delayed as ostheer struggles with map control.

T-34-85 has more health..keep that in mind. Also being ballsy with the P4 is too risky as soveits have mines; and a T-34-85 likely beats a P4 before it could do any serious damage.

The t34/85 the Soviet version of the Panther, but one that can also kill infantry reliably. The PIV is already unviable in the current meta, why would you want to make it worse?

I support making soviet non-doc units suck less, but this is taking it a tad to far.

I propose to add a second level of veterancy T-34-85 - mesh screens, reduce damage from grenade launchers.
Show Spoiler

and big smoke bomb (two big kegs) were used on the T-34-85, T-44, IS-3, T-54/55
Show Spoiler

T34/85 in terms of penetration, not in terms of health and armor.

The doctrinal t34/85 should remain tough as it is and the stock version should be visually different, so you can tell that it wont be as tough.

- Soviet T3 is less miserable. T-70 and M5 still need looking into however.

I don't think the T-70 really needs much. Maybe a slight price decrease, but it's a really nifty light tank that guns down infantry with ease and is also an excellent scout/capper.

M5, while coming later than the 251 is a better half-tack in almost all aspects and much better upgraded than the 251 is with flamethrowers. It suits well with heavy T2 play by reinforcing all those cheap-to-reinforce weapon.

^^

120 soviet T3 is, you start with 50 fuel as Sov...if you are talking about math.

Ost T3 is around 130 fuel, but mostly gets delayed as ostheer struggles with map control.

T-34-85 has more health..keep that in mind. Also being ballsy with the P4 is too risky as soveits have mines; and a T-34-85 likely beats a P4 before it could do any serious damage.

Starting fuel hardly changes the fact that it costs fuel, does it? Not to mention there is a molotov and AT grenade upgrade that Ostheer doesn't need to pay for. And yes T-34/85 is a better tank. It simply isn't better enough to be in a wholly different realm from its counterpart and Panzer IV still has very valid advantages in the form of better veterancy, better supportive abilities and weaker armored opposition generally, while the T-34/76 is flat out terrible and inadequate. It's not the end of the world to have a single Soviet unit better than its counterpart while still keeping distinct advantages and disadvantages. Also, Germans have mines too, and they get even better ones via doctrines.

The t34/85 the Soviet version of the Panther, but one that can also kill infantry reliably. The PIV is already unviable in the current meta, why would you want to make it worse?

I support making soviet non-doc units suck less, but this is taking it a tad to far.

T-34/85 isn't as strong as Panther at all, and it's not much cheaper either. It also doesn't get amazing frontal armor, combat blitz, or Panzer Tactician in some doctrines. Panzer IV is very viable, I am not sure why you think otherwise. In 2v2, it's an amazing tank. You keep throwing around "X is not viable, only Tiger is" when in my experience as Ostheer (which is my main faction, for the record), just about any doctrne has a good degree of usability. It's also obscene that T-34/76 has a doctrinal straight upgrade that completely replaces it. It's not a gun upgrade for the T-34 itself: it's a whole new unit that is the exact same but better in every way. That's bad design and it forces players to pick certain doctrines.

It's not taking it too far, it's just asking for a stock medium tank that is not useless. And getting to 10 CP takes no fuel, this binds T-34/85 to teching and therefore, an additional 120 Fuel expense. What's the problem?

Nothing is balanced about the 76mm T-34. It's useless.

It also costs 170 fuel to get there for Soviets. German T3 is cheaper. Are you sure you got your math right?

Not to mention Ostheer teching also gives Rifle Grenades and Panzerfaust for free, both of which are paid upgrades for Soviets. So no, Panzer IV doesn't come in later or at a higher cost, and it still has some solid advantages over the 85 in the form of Blitz, Vet 2 schützen and the doctrinal Panzer Tactician. It's also cheaper and still very effective against the more lightly armored opposition it will face; German armor is usually heavier, keeping in mind the Panther and King Tiger, which are both non-doctrinal heavy tanks; and the omnipresent Tiger, a very effective Ostheer tank that is very common because it is on many doctrines.

So I think you needn't concern yourself on that. Panzer IV would be fine. And non-doctrinal viable Soviet unit, however crazy that may sound, is what we're trying to achieve here.

Its very mp expensive (witch is alot more vaulable than fuel for OST)

My math is right

Can u imagine how impossible it would be as OST

When con spam and rifles are owning you. With the soviet player spamming fuel caches.

Then instant double 85's at the 16 minute mark.

That isnt balanced dude

Its very mp expensive (witch is alot more vaulable than fuel for OST)

My math is right

Your math is wrong. I play Ostheer all the time in 2v2, and I can say that I am not MP starved more than other factions. You can't just move the goalpost whenever you are proven wrong.

I also don't understand the people who say that a doctrinal T-34/85 should be better. No it should not be. Doctrinal units are there to provide additional options. 85 pigeon holes players into picking it by being a straight upgrade to a stock unit that is worthless. There's no excuse for that when it would still be balanced as a stock unit. Even more so since you would have to pay for your teching.

You guys can't complain about a call-in meta and then insist that doctrinal units should be stronger hands down. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you solve a lot of problems by making 85 a stock unit when there is no reason it shouldn't be, or you can continue whining both about the call in meta and a hypothetical 85 that will somehow suddenly be imbalanced because its unlock parameter changed from pick one of the few viable doctrines and wait until 10 CP to pay 120 fuel to unlock it and use it with any other doctrine the faction has access to.

Your math is wrong. I play Ostheer all the time in 2v2, and I can say that I am not MP starved more than other factions. You can't just move the goalpost whenever you are proven wrong.

You obviously dont play enough OST. OST bleeds MP more than any other faction

And BTW im still right

Then I'm not fuel starved as OKW in 4v4 ^^ if we follow the logic