Profile of Iron Emperor

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2015, 14:44 PMAerohank

There is absolutely no reason to not rush T3 against Ostheer now and there is absolutely no way an Ostheer player can ever do a T1 -> T3 strat against soviets. Ostheer T1 does not provide anything to deal with a Quad HT and the fuel gap is just too big to try and use a StugG as your first AT.

In the previous patch (live version now), you could punish a T1 -> T3 strat with a quad or T70 rush. If you did it well you could cripple the ostheer right then and there, but the Ostheer always has had the option to go into T2 and turtlemode until T3. This has not changed with the new patch except that Soviet T3 is now earlier and Ost T3 is now later. This simple fact has made it harder for Ostheer, but this is not the whole problem. Players like Katitof don't have the deeper understanding of game mechanics to see further than this and thus will insist it is a simple #adapt problem of getting a Pak a minute earlier and the rest of the game would play out the same way it does now. It doesn't.

The deeper impact of the change is how the rest of the game plays out. I will write this out in detail for one last time because you are my fellow bear and I love you, and hopefully people like Katitof will read it and stop their asinine ramblings.

Here in an in-depth analysis of Soviet T3 rush in the live version VS Soviet T3 rush in the 21st patch (opponent is Ostheer).

Live version:
In the live version, getting a Quad HT or a T70 has a risk and a reward. If you play it out right and/or the Ostheer makes you can potentially cripple the Ostheer player. If the Ostheer defends properly you can at least buy yourself enough time to get out a T34/76 to defend against the P4, if you fail your rush by hitting a mine or just running into a PAK40 all the time you are now behind and the enemy can punish you with a P4 or Ostwind. If the Ostheer player played well enough to survive, the Ostheer player can rely on a PAK wall for defense; forcing the Soviet to invest in indirect fire like (heavy) mortars to deal with the PAKs, which in turn means that they have less manpower available to produce an AT gun against a P4, giving the P4 some shock value. It's a back-and-forth game that has proven to be quite balanced in 1v1 and 2v2 with (with double ost and double sovs).


New patch:
Now besides the fact that the tech gap between Soviet T3 and Ostheer T3 has been increased by several minutes worth of fuel, the new patch has a combination that has not been seen before: Early quadHT/tank with a mobile AT/Arty platform, the SU76, as a cheap and quick follow up. People here seem to underestimate this unit, or seem to underestimate the numbers of these units you can produce in what time frame. Here is a fact: You can get a quad AA HT out and 2 SU76s, with halfway-enough fuel for a 3rd SU76s at the same fuel-threshold as you could a produce a single P4 assuming the Ostheer player went for T1+2+3 and has not made any scout cars or halftracks. And this is assuming the Soviet player has totally failed to get any more than 50% of the map with his light vehicle rush. In reality, it is fair to assume the Soviet player will easily be able to field the third SU76 by the time the first P4 hits the field. These little buggers in these numbers do not only hard-counter the P4 (and any other Ost T3 unit), but they also provide a huge amount of indirect firepower to deal with the only thing that was keeping the Ostheer player standing up this point: the PAK wall turtle. GG, WP, no back and forth and game over before it has even properly entered the midgame. The Ostheer tech-tree provides nothing to counter this scenario, not even 2x 222 (they might trade with the Quad, but after that they become vet-food for the first SU76).

That is the problem with the new patch, so in summary:
- Gap between Soviet light vehicle and Ostheer medium tank has been increased significantly, reducing risk and increasing reward for Soviet quad rush.
- New unit combination of light anti-infantry vehicle/tank with solid mobile AT and arty removes shock value of P4 and through sheer volume easily forces back the PAK wall.
- Non doctrinal Solution for Ostheer does not exist.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2015, 14:17 PMElSlayer

Well, I guess Relic should buff T-34 stats, because it comes too late (answers are already on the battlefield) and don't have any shock-value left?

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2015, 13:22 PMsomenbjorn

Maybe players haven't adapted yet to the new playstyle.

And it is true if the Sovs gets a bunch of caches and rushes T3 it is out at 7:00.
Because they know these particular OST players regular 2v2 build is many times a very heavy T-1 build that can very well skip T-2 and hold out waiting for T-3.
And rushing T-3 would for sovs be the perfect counter for a heavy T-1 build.
Maybe, just maybe this isn't as much of a balance issue as it is play and counterplay. And adapting to what your enemy is doing`?

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2015, 12:33 PMAlexzandvar

Dude OKW come the new patch won't have a single point in the game were it's light vehicles won't already be countered by enemy AT. If you seriously thing the presence of AT on the field makes light vehicles useless then your nuts. Soviet T3 doesn't need to come out at exactly the same time as Ostheer T3 but we don't need 6-7 minute M5's when the Ostheer player will have normally JUST gotten to T2.

And if PIV's and the 50 range StuG are dominating you when you have access to AT guns, guards, and 60 range TD that can pen the PIV/StuG/Ostwind at literally every range including max then just lol.