This is just ridiculous. It was bad enough when Soviets did it, now US does it too. pak43/ pak walls get melted by kv-8/incendiary arty, rangers/shocks melt all infantry, MG-42's get offmap smoked or rifle smoked, and the is-2 and pershing with whatever td support the two armies have make this ridiculously unbeatable blob of doom that pushes you off the map.
I'm out of ideas as to what to do about this.
For Shocks, any vehicle will do and you can push them to give your troops more time to take down models. MG-42s works, but you need to sight ahead of them so once they're suppressed and when forced to smoke relocate. Their suppression probably won't break until after the smoke has cleared. Snipers can help bleed those troops and LMG focus fire can help
KV-8s, any vehicle but the Ostwind from T3 can at least force it off as the KV-8 isn't that heavily armoured and only has 800hp so it's not a true heavy and much more vulnerable to the risk of fausts. Even Pumas are good counters as you can just drive in and shoot it. KV-8 can force away one pak frontally, but not two so it means the KV-8 will be forced to flank if it wants to last long or force incendiary which is why you want a tank or vehicle to block the KV-8 so your support weapons have more time to relocate.
IS-2s. Use StuGs and paks and keep poking it from range. If it extends to the very late game, Panther might be alright.
Rangers, use snipers, keep at range with LMGs, suppress with 42s and always make sure to have some sort of scout nearby. If they get within their range and have the majority of their members, just fall-back, their DPS with Thompsons is very high. Tanks also counter them.
Pershing, while dangerous in damage is surprisingly vulnerable due to its lower HP pool. StuGs and ATGs can chunk it down quickly if it presses forward and if you can deal with the USF infantry.
Can't really say on the combined arms engagement as it depends on position, unit compositions and who has better control. But as a rule of thumb in the infantry engagements, infantry focus fire the squads that aren't suppressed and are the biggest danger or closest. Ostheer units should always be within range of each other to provide support. And always be ready to move your units back when smoke is landing so you can re-engage immediately at max range when enemies reappear.
And as with Shocks, always keep spotters in front, so you can manage to suppress a squad before the smoke starts falling, it will slow them down significantly and could be a good time to start firing rifle grenades through the smoke.
so nothing changed,if you expect yourPanzer 4 to penetrate Comets,Pershings or IS-2s and do everything then NOPE i must stop your dream there.
The hilarious part is that the Panzer IV has issues trouble penetrating the rear armour of the Comet(180), Churchill(180) and IS-2(205) unless firing at point-blank. It's already slower that the other tanks except for blitzing or using the Encirclement breakthrough. Aren't mediums supposed to engage heavies when flanking? I guess we could toss more PIVs at it, but rear armour on quite a few tanks, KT included, should be re-examined so that flanking with mediums is better rewarded.
Onto the PIV vs doctrinal mediums, main issue that Someguy is pointing out that the standard M4 Sherman with AP and Cromwell vs the Panzer IV, while they will probably lose to the PIV head-on, it's not as one-sided as the E8 stomping the PIV into the ground thanks to its penetration and armour.
As for my opinion on the Panzer IV, no real problem with the tank. It's a good generalist that can help anchor the line and protect the Pak wall/support weapons from the superior British/American infantry and I would always take this tank over the Ostwind, even for the AI role as it can fight armour and shoot down the occasional plane with the pintle.
I wanna know why a unit "specializing in marksmanship" is spawning with carbines and upgrading to smgs... I'm assuming it's the same reason a commander called "cavalry" has us building sandbags and calling in Rangers: Relic slapped both of these commanders together in a day.
They should have spawned with M1 Garands that use the same stats as their carbines now. I'd prefer if more elite infantry had the army's most basic fire-arm as their primary weapon.
I wouldnt mind getting a different voice. hard to tell what it would sound like with out all the static and radio additions to it but I hope Relic sees this.
Well the radio does a lot. I didn't realize that the Ostheer medium tanks was also that Ostheer soldiers who knows about that girl "who can do it standing on her head" or "New guys stay on my ass!".
I tried to do some minor radio effects through editing, but it didn't turn out that well. You can sort of hear it in the first line.
1. Yes flamers are a problem vs. regular green cover. The damage output is way too high. This problem is especially highlighted vs. USF Rifle company, where you cannot use green cover against their standard mainline infantry, its actually insanity.
2. Yes, pak howie/leig/ MHT are brainless units that when spammed, reward people who can't be assed to get better at the game because they got easy and effective units like the ones mentioned before. I agree 100% with Ciez' suggested changes. Can't count how many games I've had in the past week where I play vs people who make multiple ISG's and mortars that do the work for them and then say "they have no other option". It's quite pathetic really. Let's give them another option, remove the crutch aspect of these units so that they can actually improve at the game.
4. Remove loiters sounds like great idea to me. Implement skill shots, then you actually have to use part of your brain rather than drop it in a high conflict zone and either watch it get insta shot down or rape everything.
5. Abandon has no point being in the game. Out of control is ridiculous because in many scenarios it allows your tank, that should be dead, to get one more shot off to finish off the opposing tank. This is also prevalent in the new cooking off animation, where the tank dies but is "alive" for a brief moment. This punishes calculated plays where you risk your low health tanks to finish off your opponents, only to have RNG punish you. Has happened to me many times.
1. Thing is, even if you're in green cover, most units can knock out the specialists who are carrying the flamethrower as these are on, as I say again, and should be, on very squishy specialist units. I even pointed that out in my argument as engineers squads who are assigned these weapon don't have the DPS, staying power, or ability to fight to charge head-on in most cases. Riflemen flames blobs are a completely separate thing as they get two hits of received accuracy vet: pioneers, assault engineers, and combat engineers don't.
2. I never had an issue with multiple mortars and Mortar half-tacks set you back but for Leigs and Pack Howitzers the solutions in my mind are:
-Remove their suppression
-Revert their scatter to pre-Brits so they don't home in on squads. Check the files the Pack Howitzer currently has a scatter value of 6, much lower than it was pre-Brits. This is the reason its so easy for them to suppress squads as they can easily hit things.
3.I would prefer if more depth was added to the AA and aircraft call-in play.
Loiters should give player more time to counterplay and make having AA units a viable solution against loiter strikes, but with more control for the player using the loiter to attack a select target rather than RNG being the factor of what gets shot at. If you stay in the area without AA after the plane makes a warning pass or two(7-12 seconds), your tank/unit deserves to get hit.
5. Hmm, different experiences then. I wouldn't mind if abandon was removed, just giving a solution if it has to stay in by either making the vehicle completely crippled or a certain set of requirements need to be met to force abandon. As for out of control, I've never really had that happen to me so I can't really comment if it needs to be removed or not. It be easy to fix probably, though. Just make the out of control crit make the main weapon become disabled, it's a simple addition.
1: Flamethrowers: I don't think flamethrowers are really an issue against units in cover. Of course you're saying you can just run at them, but unless you're USF whose rifle flamers should never be placed on a durable infantry unit in the first place and maybe OKW's newest doc, flamethrowers are placed on very squishy squads(engineers) that need units to screen for them to successfully reach a unit in heavy cover and if they are soloing, they rely entirely on the flamethrower to do anything if they are sent charging forth.
The damage is also not absurd to the point where green cover is a death sentence. I think it'd be best to fix things like rifle flamers or flamers being on durable infantry before adjusting them according.
As for the DOT on the ground, yes it's bad for ATGs especially but I don't think it's game breaking. The only unit that may take this to the extreme is the Churchill Croc. KV-8s aren't durable enough to charge an ATG line and any armour counters them, Hetzer doesn't even have a turret and does its job badly, FHT would get demolished on sight. They might displace/kill a gun, but unless they can get around, AT walls will smash them. Only problem I would say is OKW, but that's a rakatten problem which has no range and notoriety for crew bunching and getting wiped by anything that has AOE.
2: Indirect-Fire: Aside from suppression and the scatter of the pack howitzer and Leig I don't think we need to revamp everything to be barrage only.
After fixing the issues with the light howitzers(suppression and their current scatter values) I would accept the gun breaking mechanic as these are in the rear and generally not at risk of being hit by tank guns, rockets, etc, but not a massive revamp of how even basic artillery works. They should at least be able to fire on their own once in awhile to support an attack or defense when you might be scrambling to dodge grenades, micro units to cover, capture a specific building or spamming your AT grenade key to get a snare off.
3. Weapon Profiles: For making weapons less no-brainer and emphasizing advantages/allowing certain weapons to at least cause some damage at range, I would say SMGs could get their mid-range boosted where it might be equivalent to something lower than a rifle, but their far range remains the same. LMGs should have their DPS degrade more when up close or they reach their lowest DPS sooner, say 5-10 meters rather than at 0.
As for the cover play of these weapons, even if say SMGs could be semi-effective at range when in cover, I don't think it would be enough. You want to be closing the distance ASAP with SMGs are your DPS is more distributed amongst the squad unlike an LMG which is focused on one model. The only time you might see people fighting with their changed SMGs from cover would be either stalling on points or positions for reinforcements.
For LMGs, we could make them require cover to be more effective(likeTommies) so you can't stand in the open and blast away at units in cover with ease.
But on the issue of upgrades being situational than automatic purchases, we've got the issue of most infantry who can get weapons, their base weapons aren't what you call remarkable by any manner which makes it easy for anything added on be a complete upgrade. Why would I not get LMGs for Grenadiers which also happens to be a long-range squad whose squad size and weapons pretty much cries out for the need for an LMG? We also don't have enough upgrades non-doctrinally to make decisions between "Should I buy this or not?" There's not much choice outside of that weapon upgrade and the base weapons aren't crazy/special enough to miss not having them.
4. Skill Planes: I would like to see planes be consistently hit by AA and downed when their health reaches zero rather than them being either instantly shot down or nothing works. After this, make planes selectable units which can target specific units within the radius as its priority so no strafes being wasted on the Kubel or M20 scout cars.
For the loiters, make the attack plane loiter around the area for 1-2 passes before it commences its attack run to give time for AA units to shoot them down or clear the area for better counterplay. Adjust cost accordingly as needed.
5. Abandon/Out of Control: Never had an issue of out of control really. For abandons, we can remove them, though if it had to say, make it predictable in some manner. As for recovering vehicles, make abandon criticals cause the vehicle to have a special destroyed engine and and destroyed main gun critical forcing you to fix it all the way before you can do anything with it.
For being the M26 Pershing, I expected its gun to be a bit more powerful.
Currently it sounds like the Pershing is using the Sherman Dozer 105mm for the main gun when it should sound much closer to the M36 Jackson which has a pretty epic SFX. It may get a little confusing as to what's shooting at you, but it could just be slightly more dulled/without the mechanisms working like how the 88mm works for the Elephant versus Pak 43.
Not only that, but the Pershing should have a unique voice or at least hire an actor to do voicelines for USF heavy armour if there are ever more plans. Heck, I would do it for Relic and for free if I had a good studio. Since I live in the same city as the studio I should record all the stuff and drop it off at their front desk
Miragefla's example of the Pershing:
Also its MGs are currently MG34s and not .30cals that needs to be fixed
Cost reduction will "increase" veterancy gain since experience gained from damaging is based on the unit's value, so the latter might end up being unnecessary. The lower the value of the unit, the more experience they can gain from damaging their targets.
Oh yeah and nerf a lot of Allied infantry vet.
That's actually not how it works. Pretty sure it makes them worth less XP when being shot at, but gaining experience is another thing which is separate.
Generally the XP requirements tend to be double the unit's cost and the next level is just the previous amount multiplied by two. Not sure on OKW as they have five levels though the gap I don't really notice with Obers as they consistently hit and kill things with ease.
Responding to Dullahan: Main issue with the OKW vehicles is that their hardcounters are generally on the field and they are risky investments. They can be high-risk-high-reward, especially vs unprepared player, but the most common build orders have their counter. Brits have mines and can get a very quick 6pdr, USF captain tech is a major counter and Soviet T3 does have response units as does T2. Of course they can help win the infantry war, but they can be overwhelmed as well or forced to pull back before they can do enough.
Regardless, the main issue I'm talking about is that the OKW's starting roster tends to crumple without any sort of doctrinal support or Obers to anchor the line on, especially when the WFA/Brits get vet. Obers are good, and are godlike when vetted, but that's resting a whole lot of the army on their shoulders to defeat hostile infantry. They don't have snipers to inflict MP bleed or to ignore those received accuracy bonuses and leigs aren't a replacement for MGs. I wouldn't mind making Ober vet less ridiculous in strength along with the doctrinal support if the doctrinal/Obers weren't completely necessary to compete in the later stages in the game against infantry.
OKW needs better non-doctrinal infantry options to deal with vetted American infantry or Riflemen bonuses need to be toned down or a little bit of both.
Volks can only win through attrition as they are nothing more than a walking Shrek and Incendiary platform. Even when vetted they still do poorly against American and British infantry who gain massive bonuses to their received accuracy that makes them near impossible to kill. Even when vetted, they still don't do enough and are worse meatshields as they only get 0.81 Received accuracy to protect themselves vs small-arms.
Sturmpioneers are squishy and take too long to get veterancy and need to close to be effective. And even vetted American troops can run at them and not care given that Sturms have to do all the damage for the Volks.
Obers are effective especially when vetted, but require munitions right off the bat to be effective for their high cost. Furthermore their timing is off due to the need for the T4 so you either rush them out or don't get them at all/replace with doctrinal call-ins.
Leigs can still sort of do the work as they have suppression, but they're still not as powerful or reliable as MGs vs blobs.
Of course OKW does have fuel options, but given they have the fuel penalty, they need manpower-based options to fight off Allied infantry. Of course we don't want to break them vs Soviets whose infantry has stayed the same aside from the Conscript vet 3 received accuracy boost so I'm not asking for massive changes but slight ones like the ones below.
At the moment it feels like the reverse of the start of WFA where armour was needed to deal with OKW infantry as they were unkillable now it's just reversed.
Some Suggestions(Pick, choose or combination or add your own):
-Tone down the Rifleman Vet 3 Received Accuracy to 15% from 20% so its 0.63 Recieved accuracy when at Vet 3 rather than 0.59. Not much but a smidge easier to hit.
-Give OKW a non-doctrinal MG either in the BGHQ or replace the Kubel. They need suppression to deal with blobs and they don't have snipers like Ostheer to inflict manpower bleed/win engagements. They have to toss infantry at the problem and fight head-on rather than relying on positional play of Ostheer.
-Lower veterancy requirements on units like Sturms so they can scale better. Obers at least can vet fast as they are accurate, can fight at range and get an LMG. Sturms need to be fed dozens of troops to start being able to hurt vetted Allied troops.
-Slightly boost the Volks Received Accuracy. Not to Terminators, but maybe to 0.7-0.75 from 0.81 so they can meat shield for the elites better.
-Revamp the Volk Rifle so there is greater potential such as a slight damage increase so they require one less shot to drop a model. 12 damage from 10. DPS remains the same from the start, scales better in the end.
tldr: OKW has a hell of a time fighting USF infantry. Critique suggestions at the bottom.
I did not say the opposite. But p4 performs way better than t34. That's the main difference. It used to be ''decent'' if you rushed t3 to get an early t34, but in t4 this strat has no longer any sense.
The PIV should perform better though given the cost difference. It's the most costly non-doctrinal medium in the game. It's a 45 fuel difference hence why the T-34 should get a MP reduction to represents its need for numbers and more powerful MGs to make it more of a threat to infantry when the main cannon's on its long reload.
miragefla
Chun
Relic Entertainment
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