None of the stock indirect-fire should be able to engage targets past 80 in-game meters for the five faction, even with veterancy outside of their barrages. There should be some control for the further engagement ranges.
If you're all fearful of the pit being rendered useless, shorten the barrage cooldown so you have to micro it to actually do damage and clear position. Do this and fixing the fact its second mortar does less damage while barraging and it should be able to still hold back other indirect-fire assets early on. It'll probably do it better if the barrage cooled down faster allowing players who micro the pit to be rewarded more than those who simply toss it down at let it auto-fire for 115m.
Everyone knows my opinions given the work on my mod which is essentially "Call-ins Must Die" idea, but I'm just re-stating call-ins should not overshadow tech units. Ostheer is notorious for this in general as is the USF Armour Company and the armies late game call-ins.
If you want 100% balance - remove call-ins, tie them to teching.
If you want to see great comebacks, a way more strats, more exciting games, leave call ins as they are.
For me answer is simple. I don't want to see CoH2 as a pure math game with no RNG or no game-changing mechanic (like call ins).
Or we make call-ins cost more without tech. You still have that emergency "oh crap" button, but it is indeed an emergency since any sort of bank you have in resources is outright gone.
Thing is, for the light vehicles that cost over 60+ fuel, they generally need to be able to survive 2 ATG shots. Anyone remember how bad the Stuart was prior to its health buff? Even if the Captain tier during that era wasn't what one would call 'good' a 320 light tank in most cases was generally bad, especially if it did not have firepower and the fact ATG power grows when more guns arrive on the field where you can get close to wiping with minimal reaction.
There are only two light tank(ish) vehicles non-doctrinally that are actually good at killing and chasing down infantry, the Luchs, which has massive penalties while moving and more vs retreating units due to retreat bonuses and the T-70 due to how scatter works. Stuarts need lucky shots versus clumped troops or to be point-blank while the AEC is pretty much with the Stuart, though it has a better MG.
Here's a thing, though, what would you guys suggest to nerfing the lights, but also making them still viable units? Furthermore where do we draw the line of when they should wipe and not wipe retreating units? What do we consider too fast or too good?
miragefla's Suggestion
T-70: Only allow it to splash 1-2 models so it's still very good vs infantry, but it has much less of a chance of hurting the entire squad on retreat/clumped where it can occasionally nuke a whole squad. Can be done due to Relic's recent mine changes which allows AOE to have a limit vs models. If that's not enough, increase the scatter distance of the T-70 which is set to 1.7 and then maybe a slight manpower increase.
Stuart: Stuart has the issue with the USF being able to put vehicles back into action very quickly, but that's a faction trait, but fixing superglue would be a start. Critical Repair should require at least 4-5 seconds to work and cost more munitions.
As for the Stuart itself, I would probably say its timing is off the most and maybe its lucky AOE wipes on super clumped units. Out of all the lights, it arrives probably the soonest. How we fix it though is another issue. I don't want to raise Captain cost too much, so probably the tank's cost. Given lights like the Luchs and AEC are at 280+ and above, it could probably do with a manpower increase.
Luchs: Goes for all things, but the camouflage for any unit needs a slight delay before activation. Also, like most OKW units, rework or tone down the veterancy at max. The tank, if it gets to vet 5 will near instant pin units in 1-2 shots.
222: Could be a tad pricer in terms of fuel at a 25-35 price tag. Fix its MG as well(nerf if too strong) and its map-hacking abilities with spotting scopes. Move that bonus from a 100% increase to 50% minimum.
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Note, do not make tech any cheaper for mid-game tanks. Fix the call-in issue instead. We can't have tanks arriving too soon or then it just means tanks rushes like we had prior to the March Deployment.
I'd be willing to accept smoke rounds as the start, if to compensate for the fact the ISG is terrible versus garrisons and actually harming the structure. If they can be smoked off, then the ISG can at least help OKW's massive issue with garrisons and defensive positions when using the Battlegroup HQ.
The Battlegroup HQ, as it stands, needs considerable help as an actual tier structure rather than mainly being a beefier Forward Assembly with healing.
And LeIG itself is not mortar, it has way bigger range of fire, it can damage light and medium vehicles. It provides all nessecary support.
And in general its worse against anything not emplacements and mortars can also damage vehicles as well. The ISG just as a tad easier time hitting them due to its arc, but it's a very minor thing as it has much worse AOE and the target needs to be stationary in general. There's a reason the old Hollow Charge rounds were never used.
There's no good reason why the British trench should have no chance of being stolen which is the main issue. It should've just been a trench with a miniscle mp cost for the fact it can be placed anywhere. The fact in can sit in hostile territory and be something troops can easily hop into while the other side needs indirect-fire or flamers to destroy it is not right when doctrinal, even if they're free, trenches do not have this and take up an entire commander slot.
Sure it's protection is slightly worse by being garrison, but it's also harder to kill than Fighting Positions and Bunkers and the occupants inside have no chance of losing models. Most faction-built garrisons kills garrisoned troops, 25% of the time, the Ostheer bunker kills garrisoned troops 100% of the time for lols, while British trenches don't give a damn.
However, I wouldn't touch a thing about the 222, yet, until somebody would present me a credible alternative for Ostheer early game that will help them survive the light-vehicle meta. Even though OST is supposed to be the defensive faction, it wouldn't hurt them having access to some early aggressive tools (which they have to pay for).
I'd rather see adjustments to the other factions, aside from making the 251 a more credible threat/support vehicle that doesn't die to rifle fire which should serve as the core of the Ostheer army for both keeping it on the field and supporting it.
I'm still testing that one as we've discussed, but making it available earlier after BP 1 so Ostheer is capable of putting on early aggression and maybe giving it more support tools stock. If too powerful due to timing, keep it in the T2 building. Still better than the light vehicle meta where it's one vehicle pushing back an entire faction whereas this, it requires the entire Ostheer army to support, but in turn it provides them with some good benefits.
On Light Vehicles of Allied Factions
British: Add additional time for construction of the Platoon Command and researching the AEC. Both come online so fast it's not even funny. Most factions take 40-60 seconds to get to the next tier, Brits can do it at a third of the time. Platoon Command can already come online within the first 2-3 minutes of the game, at least delay it. Probably should also lower the AOE on the AEC's gun to be like a TD. Its MG does the work killing infantry while the gun goes after vehicles, but no spontaneous deaths of squads.
Soviets: T-70, allow it to only splash 1-2 models max just like mines so it's not a massive monster versus units who enter yellow cover, but can still pick away at infantry thanks to its ROF and low scatter. It'll still be deadly to lone squad, but not the monster versus units in cover or just due to squad placement.
USF: Stuart to also only splash 1-2 models max to prevent random wipes in yellow cover or coming around corners also reinforces its role as being more geared to fighting vehicles with some AI. Maybe tweak shell-shock vs other lights so it's not outright death. Fix USF superglue being ridiculous due to it having barely any cost or delay. Possibly raise the cost and research of Captain tech back to 70 for a greater difference between LT and CPT and give USF lower tech cost for back-teching if a Major tech is activated so they're not screwed out of MGs or ATGs.
Also as Mr. Smith said, there probably needs to be a fix for 222's spotting scopes along with the other issues as it's one of the most powerful maphacks in game barring the spotlights on the IR HT and Valentine(but it sucks). Oncethe issues are fixed, obviously we can't have dirt cheap 222s.
During ESL, the most popular doctrine pick for the wehr was the mobile defense doctrine, at 32%. This is for the obvious reason that the mobile defense doctrine have access to the puma, the counter to the USF stuart and t70.
Turning the 222 into a generalist vehicle at the expense of price would rob the wehr of a potent light vehicle counter, which it desperately needs.
as cost effective as the 222 is, it can't really turn the game around for the wehr unless it's against the british.
It would still counter light vehicles, we're not touching the autocannon which still hits the armoured cars and half-tracks hard and is a major threat to the rear of the light tanks. Furthermore, the 222 is also the army's sniper hunter, yet it has trouble running down infantry/snipers due to its MG's offset.
If we want to discuss the issue's of buffing Ostheer early game and their issues, we should talk about it in another thread and discuss what can be done there. Here we're focusing on the 222.
Cost-wise, it's 1-2 more minutes of fuel, but you also cannot toss them away if you keep losing them. 222's are still decent enough to stop the light vehicle flanks on ATGs and can finish them off if they've been hit by paks unless it's a Stuart.
Then boost the other aspects of Ostheer so it's less crutching on snipers, 222s, and call-ins? I can't bring up every topic on the faction for a single unit.
Let's say we did boost Ostheer's early game, would 222s then be too powerful at that point for their cost?
So I'm here with another topic, this time with the Ostheer 222 and pointing out the issues with the unit.
As usual discuss, critique and be nice to each other
222 Sdfksz Cost Effectiveness
Currently the 222 is 210 manpower and 15 fuel, yet two are more than capable of dueling with any light vehicle or tank outside of the M5 Stuart and will effectively trade fuel-wise as two of them are only 420/30. Yes you might lose out on manpower, but negating non-AT infantry and tiers such as Soviet T1 and USF LT tech is more than worth the price as T2 is almost always mandatory as Ostheer and 222s can be easily produced with minimal territory control.
Furthermore, counterparts to the 222 such as the Soviet M3 (190/15) and USF M20 (340/20) barely have any time to roam around before a anti-light vehicle hard counter arrives and for nearly the same price.
It should have a cost increase so losing these vehicles are more punishing and you can't immediately start countering the light cars that arrive only a minute sooner due to the 222's price. We're not talking much in terms of manpower, but mainly the fuel cost which is so dirt cheap for the unit's effectiveness.
Proposal: Cost from 210/15 to 240 manpower and anywhere from 25-35 fuel
222 as a Sniper Hunter and AI Unit
If anyone hasn't noticed is generally awful when chasing down infantry and snipers, not because the DPS sucks, in fact it's very good. The main issue is with the tracking of the 222's coaxial MG as it is offset of the main gun resulting in times where the 222 will only be able to engage the infantry with the autocannon unless you're at a good angle. Down below you can see it has a decent firing cone, but no ability to the track to the left or right, limiting its ability to engage infantry because of the offset.
Prime example of the 222's effectiveness on the move with its MG can be seen here and it still has not been fixed since the date of the video.
Since 222's will be more expensive, its MG should be a responsive weapon so the 222 can fill its role of being a light vehicle that does well vs other lights and infantry and be the primary offensive scout unit for Ostheer in the early game.
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miragefla
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