Pgrens solid? Hm.
I still don't understand, why Pgrens are "not supposed to" be a mid-close reliable unit. Why do they have ASSAULT rifles? (STGs?) Give them rifles or carbines then, ffs and it will be more understandable.
I mean what do germans really have in terms of infantry?
Grenadiers? "Fantastic"?! Yeah, they are at most suitable but "fantastic"?... No, "fantastic" are the shocks. They still die like flies and especially on retreat. A retreating 2 or 3 man squad being killed on retreat is not nice to see, no matter the faction.
Pzgrenadiers? If you take one-two steps out of cover you are down by 2 models. That happened to me while attacking a ZIS crew. A ZIS CREW! In that second is retreat or die. A unit with automatic rifles' purpose is to stay in green cover and defend? Where is the logic? Ok.... they can be upgraded with schrecks. The only true purpose of their current existence. Still, they only can use them defensively because, remember, one step out of cover and you're doomed, so you can chase nobody with that schreck. Don't tell me that for soviet being out of cover means the same penalty because I'll instantly tell ya that they have a 6 men squad.
Osttruppen? I'll let them out, their existence is embarrassing when speaking about infantry performance. They are more expensive than soviet irregulars while being torn apart by them (because, at german faction, nobody gives you a free lmg42 or a free Dp28. To whom will want to tell me that I have this facility at mobile Defense Doctrine: yeah, the chance for that Ost squad to actually have a lmg is similar to our chance to be hit by a meteorite).
Assault Grenadiers - the only reliable german infantry unit in the game. They have their weaknesses but that's normal, used properly they are ok. Oh, wait they are stuck in ONE DLC doctrine. Forget them....
So right there we've got 4 infantry unit types from which we have to chose, considering their "performances"
Now please count the number of infantry unit types at soviets, doctrinaire or default,and on top of that, please tell me, in how many soviet doctrines do you have the best soviet infantry and the best infantry in the game and in how many german doctrines do you have the best german infantry unit in the game.
No offense but your issues with German infantry seem relegated to how you are using them. Trying to force PGrens into a role they weren't designed for because "they have Assault rifles they are supposed to be pre-patch shocks" does not mean they aren't effective. Besides, from a realism perspective, Assault rifles are most effective at medium range. They are more accurate at range than sub machine guns, but still excel at close range.
As for your comments about Grens dying like flies on retreat, this is not unique to Grenadiers. They don't have retreat modifiers that make them more susceptible to being chased down. They can be hunted down on retreat by an m3 just as easily as a conscript can be hunted down by a scout car. Grens are extremely strong at range, and I almost always upgrade at least one, usually 2 with LMGs and they are absolutely beast.
I agree with the comments about Pgrens have a role overlap with grenadiers, but I find they are useful for their utility. I will usually build at least one squad and use it as an AI unit along with my grenadiers until soviet armor starts rolling out, at which point I upgrade to shrecks and they become extremely strong when kept near a pak. The two together prevent your paks from easily being flanked.
Ostruppen? Yeah I agree they are pretty much worthless.
Ass grens have their use, but I would not call them the best German infantry unit. That belongs to Grenadiers. They are only effective at very close range and assuming you know how to react to them, are pretty easy to deal with and expensive to reinforce. |
Thread: Penals19 May 2014, 05:23 AM
So any tips on how to deal with LMG42 spam in "Crossing the woods"? Grens just own everything at that map.
I like my t2 combined arms w/ cons, shocks, maxim, atg into KV8, IS2 on that map. If he is going multiple MGs get a mortar, if he is going multiple grens with LMGSs, get an additional maxim or two. Also, like Daniel said, snipers are insanely good on crossing.
As far as Penals go, I only find myself building them on stalingrad. Due to the massive amount of green cover and close quarters they seem to do well in just about every engagement there. Occasionally I will build one to use w/ a conscript squad if I'm going T1, but I find they provide less utility and only a marginal dps increase from conscripts so they feel pretty niche on most maps. Square peg, round hole. |
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I would be in favor of reducing the cap speed to half like the old ostruppen. This would make toxic strats like maxim spam less viable once mid game rolls around, without totally gimping the maxim as a support unit. |
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Nice video! |
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One issue with this is the irregular commander has no late game punch, and you'll be left trying to deal w/ a tiger. Your better off going w/ a penal squad, they handle ass grens quite well. Also keeping your conscripts at range and in cover, if the agrens charge, molotov their destination, easy win. |
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Thanks for bringing this up, Daniel. I think most of us agree that there are a number of things that could be addressed as far as map balance goes.
Regarding 2v2:
Semoisky, Crossing, and Kharkov feel too small, maybe not in terms of total map size, but maneuverability between points of interest. Semoisky stands out as a map that frequently leads to stalemates if one side decides to go heavy support weapons. This eventually leads to the long range killing machines(starting with the ISU, which forces the ost to counter w/ elefant). I think the issues with these long range units could be alleviated to an extent with bigger maps that allow for more fluid late game armor movement, similar to what Steppes provides in 4v4 settings.
Moscow - The north side base exits are extremely congested and easily pressured. The concentration of buildings, espicially near the cutoff, make it extremely easy to get pinned if the opposing player can gain position here. The south side buildings seemed to be positioned with a defensive advantage. For example, the set of buildings directly to the north of the base are protected by a high fence that blocks LOS to the base from the buildings behind it.
Regarding 1v1:
Many of the issues I see here have been brought up plenty of times, specifically by porygon in the thread you mentioned. I'll just go over some of the really obvious ones and we maybe we can break down the specifics as the discussion opens up.
Langres - The north side cutoff is easier to cut off than the south side, and as pory pointed out, strongly favors soviet T1-T4 gameplay, to an extent that it is almost uncounterable in the hands of a good player.
Kholodny - East side is brutal. The cutoff is much easier to access and hold, and the cover on the north munition point favors the west side.
Kharkov - South side is great, your native fuel is positioned well, the cutoff is placed fairly and can be harassed, but gives the south side a reasonable chance of defending. I love south side kharkov. The north side just feels terrible to play on. A huge chunk of the cutoffs LOS is blocked by a giant block of foilage, and there is a durable building with many windows sitting right on top of it. This makes it extremely hard to defend with MGs, and germans players, who don't have easy access to flames early in the game, can get punished extremely hard in the first few minutes simply by a conscript hopping in the house.
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Everything except 4 man squads and pgs and grens being shyte.
This is laughable, Pgrens are actually pretty solid, you just have to use them with patience. They aren't commandos and they aren't meant to be. Use them at range. Grens are fantastic, with and without LMGs. If your up against PPSHs' they have a hard time but you can counter this with lmgs. They will shred cons trying to close the gap. Also, the heaviest tank you will have to worry about against PPSHs' is the T34/85, which is only in one of the doctrines. German infantry is perfectly viable right now.
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I don't feel anything bad or underperforming in German 1v1, except the ultra expensive and useless panther.
ISU and TM35 mines needs a lot of nerf
Map imbalance is a bigger problem.
K. Ferma, absolutely favouring the west.
Stalingrad, Soviet auto win map.
Langres, highly favouring Soviet snipers and SU play, north is too easy to be cut off.
Krarkov, North is a death sentence.
Moscow, same as above.
Semois, muni are too easy to be cut off so Ostheer have a hard time, support weapon spam is also a big problem.
Crossing woods, even worse than Langres.
Rehev, fuck off to 3v3 please.
Yup you hit the nail on the head perfectly. The biggest issue with the game right now is Soviet mines, isu and map balance. Germans are seriously fine |
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Very fun game! Lots of action, shows a good example of how ISU v Elefant games on Semois play out. Turns out being agressive pays off in this one! Also features an arty piece that actually does some work, someone might want to cast this, not exactly top level play, but pretty entertaining none the less. |
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Well played game by both sides, I got carried in this one (Thanks Tombkings!) there were moments that I thought it could go both ways. In the end the SU85 and the ISU were very effective, Tiger Ace was a beast, Panther was used well. WP guys, GG |
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