Thread: T34/8512 Oct 2013, 16:57 PM
here is the math if you add mark target
PZIV(320MP/115FU), T34/76(280MP/85FU), PZIV(1000MP/290FU for 2 plus tech) T-34/85(720MP/260FU,4CP for pack of 2)
PZIV finishing off a T-34/85: (800/160)*5.825/(88.7097%)=32.8318sec
PZIV finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*5.825/(95.6522%)=24.3591sec
T-34/85 finishing off a PZIV: (640/160)*8.575/(68.75%)=49.8909sec
T-34/85 finishing off a PZIV plus Mark Target: (640/160)*4.2875/(68.75%)=24.9454sec
T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV: (640/120)*4.875/(50%)=52sec
As you can clearly see with mark target you can easily beat one of the p4s then ram the other and take it out your 2nd 85, add in guards and you have pretty good tank. The tank doesn't live in a vacuum and it doesn't come by itself your always going to be getting them in pairs. If you just expect to beat equal number of p4's with them every time then your using them wrong.
Now can the argument be made that it is currently simply better just to get t3 first and 2 t34-76's instead of the 85's, sure. But aside from that the tank is pretty good in every other situation you would want it in if you don't go t3 first. |
Thread: T34/8512 Oct 2013, 16:34 PM
The problem that that people keep forgetting is that they have the same cost of two t34-76's plus tech in fuel while being 115 mp cheaper then 2 t34-76's plus tech all the while with out the build time. It is entirely possible to get them out before your opponent can even get two tanks himself or catch him with one ostwind and a p4.
If you add mark target to the equation they fire 2x as fast and they can also be used with guards. The other commander that has them has radio intercept allowing you to know what your opponent is building and reach accordingly.
So they work great if you want to skip tiers and they work well with t4 after an su-85 because they are cheaper then back teching to t-34's. The only thing they currently don't work well with is t3 becuase you may as well just get more t34-76's.
When they hit the field they have tons of shock value. You just went form having maybe 1 or no tanks to suddenly having two. This gives you two t34-85's in about the same time you could have had two t34-76's (most of the time some times you can have more out) without the risk of losing one before getting the other.
Making them like two p4s would be ridiculously overpowered, you have to factor in the cost of not having to build tech with them. Two p4's plus tech cost (just inculding the cost battle phase 2 and the building not all tech costs for germans) 1000 mp 290 fuel compared to the 720 mp 260 fuel cost of T34-85's
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Key: Near / Medium / Far
Penals: 34.674 / 21.816 / 8.952
G43: 23.956 / 16.484 / 9.012
LMG: 28.423 / 18.848 / 9.273
Aside from that, I agree with a Penals cost reduction.
Hope it is in the patch notes  |
Oh boy, this is all mixed up and I think the way Nullist explains it doesn't really help (although correct) in this case but could rather complicates things more... I hope this will make it a bit clearer so where do we start?
"more armor -> even less hits"
Attacks against grenadiers have a 66% chance to penetrate. This means that a Grenadier can take on average 50% more damage than a Penal soldier. However, the Penal squad does have 6 instead of 4 men. It really is easiest not to break your head about its influence on accuracy. Just calculate it into effective health.
This means that both squads have an effective health of 480 hitpoints (= 4*80*1.5 = 6*80).
"DPS and lower accuracy"
Normally, when calculating DPS, the accuracy is already calculated into the DPS number. Take the DPS spreadsheet for example.
This shows DPS of:
Penal SVT: 5.779 near; 1.492 far
Grenadier G43: 8.203 near; 3.477 far
Grenadier Kar 98K: 3.775 near; 1.029 far
Notice how the far DPS is much lower than the near DPS. This is because the accuracy decreases with increasing distance from the target. The accuracy is already calculated into DPS.
I think this is where Con's train of thought is going completely wrong. DPS means Damage Per Second. This means stuff like accuracy, firing speed etc. are already accounted for.
Remember that these values are averages and simplified. Randomness can work both ways, which heavily influences the subjective impact of both.
Other factors like dying squad members and handing over of G43s also play into this but are hard to account for (just as the spread of fire across a squad).
ok but this clearly shows that penals are not like g43's so ya. And at the end of the day even if the units are equal that doesn't matter becuase grens cost 240 penals cost 360 gresn some out of a building that costs 80 mp 10 fuel and takes like 20 seconds to build whereas penals come out of a building that cost 200 mp 40 fuel and takes like 50 seconds to build. Penals take 50 seconds to build grens take 20-30 seconds (not a 100% sure on gren build time) and are currently not worth the time investment for equal to slightly better unit.
And since this is a topic about lmgs on grens 17.098 near 6.186 far dps penals don't compete with that |
Thats why there are 6 rifles.
More rifles=More shots fired=More rolls to hit= Dont need as high accuracy.
If it was 6 SVTs with G43 accuracy it would be completely and utterly OP.
See?
ya but Germans with g43's are hitting units with 1 armor soviets are hitting units with 1.5 further decreasing the accuracy. Meaning that Germans pen on every hit. Penals at best hit every 47% of the time and then that only pens 66% of that.
You can't just port over dps and compare the two because that is if everyone's hit, hits and pens which it doesn't. |
Then it would be a 6man 1.5 armor unit with >G43 DPS.
But not with the same accuracy
Penal
Accuracy far:
0.26
Accuracy near:
0.47
G43
Accuracy far:
0.47
Accuracy near:
0.6
Still would prefer a cost reduction and shorter build time over armor buff. |
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The problem isn't somuch the ostruppen spam, the problem is 4 or less ostuppen into tech. It isn't hard to use the cheap and quick ostruppen to cap a good portion of the map and then fast tech to t2 or t1. If t1 you can just get support weapons like mgs and snipers and still have m3 protection with your ostruppen, for half the cost of a gren sqaud. If they go t2 they can easily get pgrens and and vechiles.
Fast teir t2 used to be balanced by the fact that cons could easily attack the cut offs and deny resources, but ostruppen are so cheap that you can get a bunch of them, cap most of the map, and still get a fuel cache, a la sageofthesix's ostruppen fast t2.
If you as soviets attempt to tech up your self your looking at long wait times. 50 seconds just to get t1 or t2 and then another 50 for snipers, penals, or atgs (which your opponent can easily already have counters for) or 30 seconds (I believe, not sure for maxims, mortars and atgs build time.) That is almost two minutes to get anything out of t1 other then the m3 and the m3 is already countered by ostruppen. And a little less then a minute and a half for stuff out of t2.
If they go t1 after a few ostruppen they suffer barely any penalty I think it takes like 10 maybe 20 seconds to build t1.
The problem with ostruppen is that they mess up the balance of early game capping. Soviets only have two unit choices at the start of the game or long taking tech for units that are at best equal to their german counter parts and in most cases weaker, in every area besides survivaliblty.
However what soviets do have is slightly faster capping due to not having to build any buildings early. From the germans side this is balanced by having more tools to chose from, so while soviets maybe able to get to points faster and get units out slightly quicker they have less options.
Ostruppen completely negate this advantage and their only disadvantage is that they aren't the super soldiers that grens are, but they are cheaper so you can have 4 for the price of 2 grens.
The key problem that soviets have is they have no unit that costs less then 240. If engineers were lowered in price to 200 this would balance things out a bit more. (along with a slight ostruppen price increase) This way you could some what keep up with capping as soviets but trade that off with a unit that later on won't be as good at fighting as cons, but can still fight ostruppen. engineers are no better then pio's except at range and pio's even have more abilities then engi's. This would help in two ways, one lower cost of soviet tech builds that get a second engi and two give soviets a capping unit that can deal with ostruppen early till german tech comes, all with not messing with the current balance of the game ouside of ostruppen pretty much at all.
Also remove pfausts from ostruppen and the ability to build bunkers.
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The problem with penals is accuracy at far distances they will only hit and do damage 17% of the time, this doesn't even take into effect cover modifiers which are likely to be used by both sides at range. Conscripts in comparison have 16% and grens unupgraded have 35% change. They all do 16 damage greans having a DPS: 1.0294 at far range and penals a DPS: 1.4924. the extra DPS is basicly equal to the more likley pen chance of grens, add in lmgs and rifle nades and at best you can say a penal is equal to only maybe slighty better then a gren at range.
Onced they are vetted up things may change but the point is that in a normal game setting penals are slightly better at combating grens then a conscript but they cost 120 more and when you get them they are likley to facing vetted or close to vetted grens and things like pgrens which are much better at fighting cons compared to grens. Gettting a penal is almost no better then geting a conscript becuase your trading Molotovs and at nades. If you can some how survive long enough to get them vetted then you will have better inf but the same could be said of shocks which have a much better impact when they hit and have the same unit weaknesses.
Penals should cost something like 280 mp and take 40 seconds to build instead of 360 and 50 seconds then they would be worth it as an elite infantry choice. |
"Which opponent was the most difficult and why? -Sage"
i laughed hard on this 
If you looked at there game where sage played soviets you will see that sage had him early by killing off his flamer ht but didn't finish him off and condemnation was able to bring it back, had he changed some stuff he would have crushed him. |
It used to be that you could pay 60 munitions to repair your T70 back to full health after getting fausted once (maybe even twice..?). That always seemed reasonable to me as you're paying 60 muni to counter a 25 muni ability.
After what I assume are the changes to how fausts and at-nades do damage, the T70 is left with 99% health and a damaged engine after using field repairs post-faust. This makes the ability basically worthless.
Two suggestions: either increase the health self-repair grants, or dramatically increase the health self-repair grants but make it immobilize the T70 in the same way that the doctrinal self-repair works.
Agreed |
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