Well I had a huge reply that got deleted by this world class site, so lets try the abridged version...
I guess I dunno why the E8 has to be a straight up Panther or Comet for it to have value. I've never seen a complaint about the T-34-85 being an upgraded T-34 or the Ost P4J being an improved P4. I'm assuming your perspective is coming from a larger teamgame mode, where mediums struggle. If thats the case, I don't know if the E8 will ever be viable there. Even if we made it a straight up Panther clone, the Jackson would now be cheaper, longer ranged, and have more reliable penetration against the big cats. Furthermore, you would still feel obligated to take Infantry or a Calliope doc to fill the gaping holes in the stock USF roster over something you can already handle to a reasonable degree.
It may be that the E8 is just going to be a 1v1 or 2v2 unit. The way the game plays shifts dramatically depending on the mode, and that in turn changes the power level of lots of units.
I do agree that the doc is in desperate need of a rework though. I'm also a big proponent of more docs for USF / OKW / Brits, as there are too many units that only appear in a single doc and are often only good in a single mode.
Perhaps. I am speaking from a 3v3 mode perspective. I wouldn't like if E8 became a clone of Comet or Panther.
My idea would be the following alongside the commander rework:
Buff armor to 230 (+15), ever so slightly buff AI power of the cannon. Increase price by 10-15 fuel.
I feel that it would give a slightly bigger edge vs medium tanks (a couple of percentages of penetration less), an edge that is worth investing in with the doctrine.
|
|
Nobody denies that it's best in class and that it outguns the stock P4s, both. While statistically it is superior, the superiority is not that big. Going vs OKW P4, E8 will win most of the time (unless RNG gods are against it), but it won't win like a Panther wins vs all other tanks, it will force it off a bit while getting out with 33% or less health on average (at least from my experience using it). It walks over OST P4.
It also does not need to trade with Panther. Panther is in a class of it's own and no tank should be similar to it. Probably the closest is Comet with it's price but it trades AT power and range for better AI cannon and utility (30 more armour, 160 less HP, more utility, no pintle MG, and other pros/cons).
I can't think of a single reason why E8 should not have a price increase with buffed armour or HP to 800.
I don't think anyone can deny that the E8 is great on paper. The commander is piss poor and it's in only one. But that is the problem with OKW, USF and UKF. Low commander count.
Without the buffs, it can only work in 1v1s where the risk of a snare is not that great, compared to teamgames where that extra 80 hp means nothing as most likely there will be one wild snare coming your way. Not to mention that the armour won't bounce paks or raketen, negating any sort of brawl in teamgames. Eg. Brummbar, panther can brawl. KVs and Churchills can sponge it, etc.
Esxile is right in a way. Either the doctrine needs to have some sort of 6CP+ abilities or the E8 should be a love child of a comet. A bit retarded doctrinal love child with worse stats and lower price |
use the ability and do not instant spwan them.
Now you are being blind. Can't you see the cooldown on the ability? |
There is.
Am I being blind?
Edit: Just alt-tabbed back to the game. The icon appeared after I clicked to summon another batch of paratroopers. After that both of the paras had elites.
Seems I just witnessed a UI bug in my last game with paras.
I stand corrected. They do have elite zooks. Was bugging me a while but never had the will to test it again. |
Funny how you speak of the higher armor value of axis tank and not their lower penetration values.
Easy 8 has clear advantage over the PzIV J because of high penetration and high armor.
A PzIV has 51% to penetrate the Easy8 and Easy8 has 66%
WP smoke is not a glorified smoke since it damages and slow units unlike smoke and it not even expensive. It price is 130 mu 10 more munition than "incendiary bombing run" while being far superior.
Flamethrowers do not decrease the range of the whole squad the range remain the same the unit simply move close so that all weapon can fire.
Suggestion do not combine flamer with bazookas and if you do, move your unit into range instead of attacking armor.
All paras get "elite" bazookas" and so do rangers.
No sh** sherlock that axis have lower penetration values. They are going against lower armour. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Furthermore, the penetration values are not proportionally lower compared to higher armour values, the whole point of axis factions.
WP is a glorified smoke. The shells come is slow succession and they are easy to dodge. I didn't say it's useless, so learn to read. Play with the WP and you'll see that it's highly situational on most maps. Nothing but a glorified smoke for that price. If the price were 100 MP, then it would have been much more useful.
Flamethrowers do not decrease the range, no sh** sherlock. Do people really need to spell it out for you to understand? Learn to read between the lines. "Simply move in" sure, let me move in to a P4. And I do agree that flamethrowers and zooks should not be combined. It's suicide, which is my point exactly. Can't put it on echelons if they have flame, can't put it on rifles since it's suicide. Major only. Thank you for proving my point, zooks become useless unless the flame squad dies later on in game.
Seralia does not show the bazooka tab for the Paratrooper squad but it does for Paratrooper support squad (recon paras). Furthermore, there is no icon on the paratrooper squad that they have better training with zooks (like commando brens, ranger zooks, etc) in game.
Won't discuss anything further sinc |
|
I wouldn't really separate rangers from Pershing. Fits nicely in the commander, especially since they synergize well with the smoke. Either zook rangers for medium hunting or assaults on MGs.
About the E8. It will never shine. Nothing but a bit more glorified OKW P4 locked in a doctrine. Sure it has more penetration but so does it face higher armour values. A good tank, but not worth picking a doctrine that gives 0 late game value outside of an occasional expensive (120 muni) glorified smoke. Good for VP denial though, that smoke. Still expensive, but good if you really need to stall those last points. Saved me a couple of times leading to wins with less than 20 points lead. Flamethrowers are not really used on echelons in teamgames, especially since they decrease the range of the whole squad on right clicks (eg: zook + flame). The sprint on rifles is good. The biggest selling point is the sandbags/mines on rifles.
Mech got nerfed via WC51 nerf. Don't know if further nerfs are needed. But I think it will still be picked in 1v1s most of the time. Recon commander is strange. On one hand you get pak howi + paras that have elite zooks (Question: Why don't airborne paras have elite zooks?) for quite a price tag, but you also get a useless LV that really has no use outside of 1v1. Great commander overall for 1v1 that loses in teamgames most of the time (the 100 muni is not really worth it for pak/paras in teamgames).
Rest of the commanders are kinda ok. But truth be told, E8, Heavy cav and recon are the commanders I play 90% of my 3v3s. Seldom get the Pershing though, the offmap smoke + rangers is brilliant. |
Umm....
How do I break it to you....
Lefh....
Is doctrinal....
I think what he means is that LeFH is a much safer choice and can be chosen early on because with it, you have an answer to any sort of indirect, with minimal input, while the ally commanders have to specifically wait to see if there is a LeFH on the field to get an offmap. Besides, LeFH is in strong commanders, which further amplifies it's usage. |
I listened to your opinion. I understood your exact opinion as saying that the ez8's range buff would be useless. If so, I would like to talk about your competitive edge with Panther, but I think that is a very wrong judgment. And the ez8's range buff is aimed at dividing jackson's anti-tank role. And if you don't have an accurate opinion on what you want, I can't communicate with you. What's the content buff you want for the Rifle company.
I don't want anything. I stopped caring when I saw that the mod team mostly listens to the loudest people on this forum. Furthremore, I did not compare it to a Panther per-say. Just stated that with 50 range, it would have some sort of strange role like a Panther, which does have less AI without the MG upgrade, but is all around better (and more expensive). In my opinion E8 needs one of the following: Armor/HP/AI buff. Standalone or in combination. While it will win vs an OKW P4, it will be a Pyrrhic victory at best. Especially against a good opponent. Right now, E8 is only good en-masse with vet1. So in teamgames where you have the space and time to build up a force through careful engagements and usually around 100 VP mark to overrun the opponent (like with Panthers and Tigers or Comets).
About your dividing the Jacksons anti tank role. Jackson will never be not built in any game. Why? Because Axis have 260 armour Panthers which also have the speed and enough AI bleed to send infantry running (once pintle MG is upgraded and assuming that the player is smart enough to keep all 3 MGs on target).
If the enemy gets a Tiger, that void is even further amplified. Let's say you have 3 rifles, an officer and a light vehicle. Either an AA HT or Stuart. That's about 40 population. Now one would assume that you have either a pak or 50 cal and an AT gun. That's 55-62 population. That's your standard force that can answer most threats. That leaves you for 2x E8s. Now for 1v1, that is more than enough and E8s can do their job at keeping mediums at bay and probing enemy lines but as the game progresses, and you risk going vs Tigers and Panthers, your E8s will become obsolete. The AT gun will become a muni sink and you will need to get jacksons.
So, knowing that... I'd go for regular shermans which give me extra AI and use the leftover pop to get another AT. Heck, or even if I have a ranger commander a 3x zook rangers for some ambush tactics against diving tanks. And in the end the Jackson will come superior. Why go E8 when you have a 60 range TD, which, being useless against infantry more than makes up for with AT power.
If anything, I can only imagine E8 to be some sort of a cousin to a Comet, with a proportional price increase. As I said, right now E8 can brawl mediums, but not as Comet or Panther can. I'm not a fan of such high penetration chances on normal range combats. Medium range, OKW P4 has 54% of penetrating E8 while E8 has 67% chance. That's not a calculation I'd take, even with 1 more shot HP worth of stats. Chances are the E8 will win but will need repairs (jackson can win without risking anything). Vs OST P4 I'd gladly take. |
I strongly agree with this opinion.
And if the ez8 is a buff in anti-tank capabilities in a rifleman company, on the other hand, it may lack anti-infantry capabilities. So the Ranger sniper idea is good, but I think it makes more sense to add a Ranger squad.
And the current ez8 doesn't have any distinct advantages, so top players hesitate to use it in tournaments.
So, if you adjust fire range, ez8 needs a buff from 40 to 50 as in this opinion.
Do you know how much backlash you would get from whereaboos if you did that? Besides, E8 would still be useless. Even with 50 range. Well, not as useless. It's main role is to brawl mediums, however, having lower armour than OKW P4 and mediocre penetration, combined with slightly above average HP and below average AI cannon, 50 range would do nothing. Only real tank it would counter then would be OST P4. Unless armour or HP or AI or a combination of those is buffed, E8 will never see the light of day in any sort of competitive play (penetration values are fine as it is supposed to be a closer range tank).
Think about it, what would 50 range achieve on 200/165/155 penetration values? OST P4 has 180 armour, so that's about 85% to penetrate, which leaves quite a large margin for RNG. 15% ain't much but it ain't neglectable. OKW P4 has 234 armour, which is about 65% chance to penetrate, something I would not toy around with and leave it to RNG gods. Combined with 6-6.6s reload, there is much left to be desired.
Summa summarum, 50 range buff on E8 would be pointless and would further reduce the role it has. Why give it slightly above average armour compared to OST tanks and slightly above average HP compared to all stock mediums if you plan on using it long range only? To what? Have a chance at penetrating mediums?
Not gonna comment if E8 would go against a panther. Only a pair of E8s can contest with Panther |
|
Highly unlikely that the mod team will buff USF in any way. Be it commander or core. They'd get way too much backlash (eg.people still complain about 2x bar rifles and even a handful of people labeled pathfinders OP in close range...). A couple of loud voices in conjunction with weak decision making from mod team leads to the current patch (QoL changes are great though). Played about 25 games from v1 to v5 and honestly, most are just quasi buffs/nerfs. Only a couple of real nerfs or buffs (ostruppen, pak, scott, okw tech). Rest just duds. I wouldn't expect much from the commander patch (if it even happens). |
Relic Entertainment
